chintu
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An observation regarding Patek 31-260 PS QL
Apr 25, 2021,13:02 PM
One of the editors in another forum have pointed out the absence of interior angles in the caliber 31-260 powering the 5236P. The caliber’s bridges are rounded at the edges but the expert points out that the lack of interior angles are indicative of lack of hand-finishing expected of a high price complication from Patek.
Pic from their website posted here.
Pl remove the post if it violates forum rules. I thought forumners with expertise in judging caliber finishing could give their views and hopefully more hi-res images of the caliber 31-260 can be added to this and discussed. Red arrows point to the highlighted issue wrt the interior angles ( or lack of it).
pic courtesy : quillandpad
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An observation regarding Patek 31-260 PS QL
By: chintu : April 25th, 2021-13:02
One of the editors in another forum have pointed out the absence of interior angles in the caliber 31-260 powering the 5236P. The caliber’s bridges are rounded at the edges but the expert points out that the lack of interior angles are indicative of lack ...
great post
By: Bruno.M1 : April 25th, 2021-13:54
and unfortunately I agree. And it's exactly the same reason why a 5070 is superior to a 5170 and a 5970 is more interesting than the 5270. I still love the band and the finishing is good ... but it could bet better. Interior angels are among the most diff...
Absolutely
By: Credor : April 26th, 2021-08:37
And not even for the looks of the watch. 5711 is quite possibly the ugliest watch out there. I really dislike the the rounded but still somewhat cornered octagon (can't decide what it wants to be) bezel , dial and sapphire crystal. The bezel is also too f...
Great information that reads like a story
By: emcquillan : April 25th, 2021-14:39
You make irrefutable points and in an entertaining way. The hard truth takes a moment to digest. I laughed out loud at "Which is okay because his kids, now in their 20's don't really talk to their dad much, anyway." You paint a picture with your words ver...
Excellent post, thanks!
By: Esharp : April 25th, 2021-15:27
Would you mind PMing me the link to this Canadian forum? (Assuming that posting it publicly may be against this forum’s rules - although to be honest I have no idea of it is or not.) Best E.
Indeed!
By: amanico : April 26th, 2021-05:43
Which Is Also Exactly Why...
By: elliot55 : April 25th, 2021-17:04
... I'd rather have a watch from the folks who used to make the movements for Patek.
;)
By: amanico : April 26th, 2021-05:43
Two Words...
By: elliot55 : April 25th, 2021-17:01
... Thierry Stern. No watch manufacturer in the world would hire this nepot fool. Superb post, by the way. - Scott
1000 x thanks for your insightful post.
By: MTR : April 25th, 2021-17:49
Written with a lot of passion and impressive knowledge. A confirmation of what I have felt and feared for a long time. And what I have - sometimes - discovered for myself with my much more modest knowledge. One more reason for me to only buy what I really...
Yikes! What an incredible post...
By: pfang56 : April 25th, 2021-18:31
Time to take out the loupe! Some provocative yet very powerful commentary - time to relook at the collection. Cheers Peter
Chapeau !
By: Jay (Eire) : April 25th, 2021-18:45
You are all to kind and thank you!!
By: BigFatPauli : April 25th, 2021-20:57
I have to admit, I did hesitate before posting it because I didn't know how it would be received here. I am glad it was taken as it was intended: lighthearted with some information wrapped in a narrative. The Canadian forum is There are a few very experi...
.
By: PalmSprings : April 25th, 2021-22:44
What do you mean by marching marks? I looked at the picture several times but don't know if I'm looking at the right thing. Could you show it on a picture with a circle on it?
The edges should be polished smooth (by hand).
By: quattro98 : April 26th, 2021-03:04
The edge of the micro rotor shows machining marks. It would be preferable if this were polished, but I think one could accept this. The edge of the bridge shows marks from the tool used to create the anglage (bevel). In a movement of with an expectation o...
!
By: PalmSprings : April 26th, 2021-07:35
Thank you for the information.
Hehehehehe :)
By: @lberti : April 26th, 2021-06:59
We need Pauli for the turnaround of the Swiss Watch Industry
Couldn't agree more
By: m2 : April 26th, 2021-05:44
Patek is not even close to being the best, especially for the money. 100% agree with you.
Excellent post
By: Credor : April 26th, 2021-08:30
For years I have tried to get excited by Patek watches. They have always failed to excite me except for the rare handcrafts, some vintage pieces and the 5160R/J. Patek does nothing for me.
BRAH-VO!
By: r0gue : April 27th, 2021-01:38
Superbly done sir. I agree 1,000% and you've brought me great joy in this cleaning of the lens, into the industry (yes industry) in which we amuse ourselves.
100%
By: m2 : June 13th, 2021-02:55
Patek and AP are just like any other multibillion dollar brand. I would do the same thing if I knew my customer was had no clue what they were buying. Personally, my next big watch purchase will be from Roman Gauthier, who offers a lot more value for the ...
I recommend reading Walt Odets’
By: chintu : April 25th, 2021-15:22
...brilliant article on The ABC’s of Watch Finish. This was an eye opener for me when I read it more than a decade ago and it helped me appreciate the beauty of hand finished watches and to also understand the reason why these hand finished works of art d...
Glad you pointed towards that article Chintu!
By: eklektik : April 26th, 2021-13:41
Just read it and although it is a great introduction to watch finishing, I do not agree with some of the statements like "Each one serves a function and, for the vast majority of them, the quality of finish will determine how well the part can perform its...
That’s true...
By: Esharp : April 25th, 2021-15:25
...but meaningless. The Patek sells for multiples of the JLC or the Rolex. And it sells itself on the basis of being The Best, peerless, etc. It’s something of an apples vs oranges comparison. Best E. (It’s been a while since I’ve looked at the 2121 movem...
The 2121 is intrinsically expensive, regardless of finishing.
By: mkvc : April 26th, 2021-00:14
Looking at the movement, it seems clear that economy was not among its design goals. It is certainly respectable to design a movement for the purpose of making it easy to manufacture and finish, and I certainly don't approve of complexity for the sake of ...
Epic post!
By: Uncle Chico : April 25th, 2021-14:47
Can’t help but think
By: baufoam : April 25th, 2021-15:02
of Thierry Stern on his 100 million dollar yacht planning his next trip on his private jumbo-jet.
Hear, Hear...
By: elliot55 : April 25th, 2021-17:09
... I was thinking exactly the same thing. Gotta pay for that stupid yacht somehow. Philippe must wake every morning cursing himself for entrusting his buffoon-of-a-son with the family jewels. Just sayin'.
Philippe, Henri and Charles Stern
By: baufoam : April 25th, 2021-18:56
Produced my favorite watches. Thierry is far more interested in the art of watch making as a purely commercial concern. Thierry can make watches faster and cheaper and charge more ( obviously much more) money than his predecessors ever could. I have two p...
A PP Collector Who Feels...
By: elliot55 : April 25th, 2021-22:41
... As you do would concern Thierry's predecessors to the nth degree. As it stands, the yacht captain could care less.
Thank you for the education.
By: JustaGuy : April 25th, 2021-15:30
I don't always know what I'm looking at or am educated enough in movements to communicate what my eyes are seeing or might be missing. I'm in my 30's and always happy to learn, so don't worry, there's hope for future generations! Loved the post and reply....
Swiss Watchmaking Of This Caliber...
By: elliot55 : April 25th, 2021-17:12
... Must display a number of finishes. Interior angle is just one of the finishes. Clearly, PP has literally cut corners. Which sucks because PP watches start at 30 grand. In other words, buy a watch from Jaeger LeCoultre, the folks who used to make the m...
It is all down to geometry
By: eklektik : April 26th, 2021-07:29
There are two main types of angles: acute (<90°) and obtuse (>90°). (There are also straight, right, zero and full angles but that is not the discussion here Acute angles, called here interior are more difficult to finish (files even small cannot easily f...
+1
By: Jim14 : April 29th, 2021-18:02
While the post is great and true to an extent!
By: ZSHSZ : April 25th, 2021-16:04
Since I’m doing this for a while I can assure you that it’s not just Patek, the same goes for Vacheron, AP, Lange... I had a chance to see the finishing if the VC Corn de vache recently and can assure you that it’s not even close to the finishing of the M...
+1 ...this is modern Patek as well as many others.
By: vitalsigns : April 25th, 2021-16:45
Why spend money on more costly (and beautiful) movement layouts and finishing when the ROI on marketing is so much higher? Instead, automate the hell out of production and spend vast dollars selling prospective buyers on the idea that they're getting some...
Well said!
By: Centurionone : April 25th, 2021-18:31
Quality is quality
By: jim_94104 : April 25th, 2021-19:21
U can live on reputation only for so long becore u are being found out.
Apologies for the typos, I was driving😉🤷🏻♂️
By: ZSHSZ : April 25th, 2021-22:49
Not a macro shot, but one can see the mostly machine finish of the mighty triple split. Yes, lots of curves and bends but no inward angles or nice large anlage as it used to be... ...
True, to an extent
By: jmpTT : April 27th, 2021-12:06
The finishing on the VC Cal 1140/1141/1142 has been inconsistent. Looking at my own admittedly beautiful Historiques Chronograph, I think the movement finishing is off the top level and was possibly improved in models that came afterwards. Prestigious bra...
Absolutely Beautiful Watch...
By: elliot55 : April 25th, 2021-17:14
... And a tribute to what real movement finishing is all about. It was a strange move when PP decided they were going to certify their own watches, which clearly means nothing.
Some inward angles in finely finished Pateks
By: chintu : April 26th, 2021-15:27
Here are some beautiful examples of what Patek produces in their ultra expensive pieces ( nice internal angles as well) Minute Repeater - Internal angles finished to perfection esp the bat-wing bridge Caliber 29-535 to show the beautiful bevelling ...
Is there anyone who really cares (of anglage)?
By: piccolochimico (aka dsgalaxy1) : April 25th, 2021-17:51
Let's be serious, we're just a bunch of watch nerds. When the caseback were sealed and hidden, finishing was excellent and pristine. Quality was for granted. Today they sell us emotions, something valuable for the next generations. Laser cutting machines,...
Yes, some care. While most have no idea such a thing exists.
By: Brandon Skinner : April 26th, 2021-16:06
This is part of the premise of Paul’s post. Patek is now in the business of selling emotions, not top line watchmaking. Some people care very much about such finishing techniques (or lack thereof), but for PP those people are drowned out by the masses tha...
I went on to look at many movements on their website...
By: Clueless_Collector : April 25th, 2021-19:38
And my 240/324s and it seems PP movements don’t have much inward angles...Even the 5372P doesn’t have much, maybe one inward angle. This practice has been like that long ago so what’s the surprise today? I’m clueless....new expectations?
5372
By: sie : April 25th, 2021-20:27
the chrono-clutch alone has 4 ...i do spot 6 at least
...
By: sie : April 25th, 2021-21:02
240 SQU (ref 5180) as far as i know is the only one in the 100k range with interior angles. CH(R) 29-535 in all variations, even 5370 and 5204 not a single one. things change around the 400-450k+ mark
What a read!
By: Horo_Traveler : April 25th, 2021-23:07
It made my day. It’s not just how true your points ring, but how beautifully they ring :- )). It was at once both a commentary and satire on the state of the emperor without clothes (well, at least not his robe).
BTW, I just put a loupe to my Geneva Seal 5110.
By: Horo_Traveler : April 25th, 2021-23:18
The vertical striated machine marks on the inside circumference of the rotor are exactly as in your image of the PP seal watch. They are are fine and very evenly separated, but they are there.
So, I just want to say...
By: Chromatic Fugue : April 26th, 2021-01:43
... that this post, and the fact that the moderators kept it up, illustrate the indispensable value of this website in today’s watch world. A glorious antidote to HODINKEE.
Wonderfully summed up.. And here are some nice finishes to admire
By: chintu : April 26th, 2021-11:11
I chose from a collection of independent brands that give a high degree of emphasis on finish. Pics - courtesy internet. Just today, I was listening to the Grönefeld brothers speaking on their watches and mentioning that it takes them 4 weeks to hand-fini...
Excellent perspective
By: quattro98 : April 26th, 2021-12:24
This is the forum I trust the most to see others thoughts on watches. This has been the case for over 20 years now (posted under a different name back then). A truly independent discussion matters. All of us approach watches from different perspectives.
It's disappointing
By: jmpTT : April 26th, 2021-02:15
Certainly there is a hierarchy of movements at Patek and the $200,000 watches are not in the top tier, when it comes to finishing. The classic comparison is the CHR 27-525 PS in a 5959P vs the CH 29-535 PS in the 5370P. Only one of these movements is fini...
True.
By: Horo_Traveler : April 26th, 2021-06:11
It is not just the movement finishing and angles that makes a Patek, well... a Patek. Their dials, case designs, overall emotion of the designs, high focus on precision for both new and serviced watches, prioritizing thinness as a hallmark of fine watchma...
Yes, but not on the new ones or just about any of the 3/4 plate watches.
By: jleno : April 26th, 2021-16:50
Expert level anglage is unfortunately very expensive. I do think VC and Breguet perhaps offer slightly better quality but their movements are not too different from Patek in overall quality. There are a few cases like Pascal Coyon that do offer very high ...
Same
By: m2 : April 26th, 2021-13:56
Likewise, haven't seen much out there though. I have a rough idea in my head but things also seem to depend on what year the watch from a brand was made
Thank you for this very informative read.
By: Time to watch : April 26th, 2021-21:50
I cannot deny that the finishing of the modern pieces is, somewhat inferior when compared to previous models. However I don’t think it’s fair to characterize that the finishing is under par, or that the money paid is excessive relative to the finishing. I...
Interesting viewpoints, but
By: chintu : April 27th, 2021-15:08
May I present a few counter points as well. On technical innovation front, it would be pertinent to point out that a simple feature of “stop seconds” was considered unnecessary for over a century and half by Patek until caliber 31-260 ( derived from 240) ...
I completely understand your point of view regarding hand finishing
By: Time to watch : April 27th, 2021-20:37
And I would also welcome a higher standard of hand finishing for my money in all circumstances especially when one considers Pateks price point. But to ignore or discount important innovations and developments, late or not, is to inaccurately evalutate to...
I can appreciate a well finished movement
By: Time to watch : April 27th, 2021-20:39
I’m not disputing the charm and beauty of a lemania finished by Patek. But can we not also appreciate the modern package? I believe both have a place in any collection. H.
So what is Patek, AP and Vacheron thinking?
By: Lafrog : June 5th, 2021-18:29
So in this thread it's pretty clear patek absolutely skipped some work on the dial, Vacheron has done absolutely nothing to revamp their ageing lineup and calibres, and AP's new 1159 is now just a pre-requisite of getting a RO. Just what in the world are ...
Good thread
By: enjoythemusic : June 12th, 2021-23:26
Yet, humbly said, old news. I was a VERY avid PP collector decades ago... until they moved service at Rock in NYC... and the seal fiasco... and the unqualified kid being their new front guy. Patek went downhill in various directions and sold all but one c...
I don't disagree but...
By: tokyo_watch_guy : March 27th, 2022-11:29
I don't disagree and im certainly not trying to "defend" PP per se but thought I would also add that another "hyped" brand, is FPJ and at similar price points, around 100-200K mark FPJ's movement also do not have interior angles either. Now, many defend F...
Patek also solders the lugs
By: chintu : March 29th, 2022-02:30
To the best of my knowledge all Patek watches have the lugs soldered to the case. Will be happy to stand corrected if there are examples made available in the forum by experts.
+1
By: India Whiskey Charlie : March 28th, 2022-05:26