Langeholic
394
It's all relative....
Sep 04, 2018,05:49 AM
The 2499 belonged to an era that Patek was at the forefront of innovation in horology, very few brands could compete. Even during its time, it stood out as a champion of that era despite its imperfections. It was rare practice for any brand to make such complicated in-house movements, so outsourcing was a necessity for survival. This fact coupled with auction manipulation of prices by the PP museum has catapulted the 2499 into the hall of fame. I agree it has the X-factor.
Fast forward to modern horology, despite the fact I own one, I find the 5970 a nostalgic attempt to cling onto what made Patek great. It exists in a time when small independents are making in-house movements and doing it with more flair and ingenuity. If Patek claims to be an elite horological brand and expects us to pay a hefty premium for it, I am going to hold them accountable and not just follow the đ.
Please donât get me wrong, I love the aesthetics of the 5970, it is no doubt a beautiful timepiece. Step back for one minute and look at it in a different way, one can argue it is lazy! The aesthetics are a subtle evolution of past models and the mechanism is predominantly built by a 3rd party. Whilst the finishing is good, it is not outstanding. Is it really worth above $100k+? Perception clearly indicates so for the moment. I can say the same about the 5131 and 5711/12, but only time will tell.
The aesthetics of the 5270 donât help, but at least the 5270 contends with its peers, it holds its head up high and breaks the mould, it innovates and causes controversy, therefore truly earning its place amongst elite timepieces.
In conclusion, had the 5970 existed in the era of the 2499, I would be singing it praise, but it didnât, it existed during a period of history that saw smaller players producing far better and innovative timepieces. This may come across as contentious, but if I was a Stern, I would be ashamed of that period of the companies history. To be number one, a brand needs to be the best they can be at all times and not rest on their laurels.
Comments:
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My new 5970G: some reflections on the decline in Patek's movement finishing
By: Incandenza : September 3rd, 2018-09:06
I have had the great fortune to acquire a 5970G, fresh from a service in Geneva. It is a beautiful watch on every level. The dial and the case are obvious standout features, but another aspect of the watch has captivated me: the movement. The movement is ...
Wonderful and a growing classic
By: thomaspp : September 3rd, 2018-10:16
I love all lemania based patek Chronos and always thought the finishing was top. I have never owned an in house patek chrono so canât comment. Best
I suspect....
By: baufoam : September 3rd, 2018-11:08
in years to come, what people will regard as âHigh-End Finishingâ by Patek Philippe will not involve any work done by Philippe has made it very necessary for themselves to produce more watches than ever before. They really are a different company than wh...
I agree with you 100% sir.
By: Miles_151 : September 3rd, 2018-10:46
What a lovely photographer you are as well as have exquisite taste in your Patek Choice. The 5970 already is recognised as one of the best PCCâs and will only become more so as time goes on. Hope you donât mind but that movement shot is my new screensaver...
Congrats!
By: keks : September 3rd, 2018-11:08
Amazing piece!
EBIT pressure, as simple as that...
By: mywrongwrist : September 3rd, 2018-12:20
Respectable brand which probably is not anymore what it used to be, they decided to leave amazing finishing only for pieces fhey can charge a retail price with, despite hand finishing, can assure them a hefty margin And then maintain then their status to ...
RM
By: tom2517 : September 3rd, 2018-19:44
RM movement to me is fancy design masking a lot of stamped parts. Iâm not impressed with their movements. However, I do like the case design because it shows off those movement so well and very recognizable once you know what they look like. To me the RM ...
Thanks for the movement pics and congrats
By: Miranda : September 3rd, 2018-13:41
I was one of the first to see and compare the 5270 and 5970 My conclusions were that aesthetically I find the 5970 much more appealing Technically the 5270 is superior/ the new movement was designed to be easier to service and be more robust/ accurate Fin...
I agree a lot om your points....
By: ChristianDK : September 3rd, 2018-13:48
I Think they are very valid. I very much appreciate and agree on your remarks regarding Lange finish. I have never dared to express aloud myself in this forum, as I think it goes contrary to commen belief, but I think you are spot on.
Please reconsider...
By: patrick_y : September 4th, 2018-01:10
The 5970's Lemania chronograph movement is beautifully finished. But I would say one has to see both the Patek and the Lange movement at high magnification and determine the polishing quality. Average Patek Philippe to average Lange watch; the Lange defin...
Yeah
By: tom2517 : September 4th, 2018-01:29
From the distance the OP took his pix of the movement even the 240 would look good, needs to be closer and under higher magnification.
strange comment
By: ChristianDK : September 4th, 2018-06:09
as i dont think we are discussing "his pix" but movement finish.
Itâs not strange
By: tom2517 : September 4th, 2018-07:11
From that distance many movement would look nice.
agree on this point speaking of the cheaper models
By: ChristianDK : September 4th, 2018-05:29
but I am lucky to be able to sometimes have the possibility to play with some of the higher end pieces. There I I dont think lange comes out as the winner-viewed through x4 and x10 loupe - but as I say, that is a controversial view - that I stand by.
This is Patek MR
By: tom2517 : September 4th, 2018-05:46
Clearly there is a major screwup and some areas that could be better. I donât own any vintage Pateks so canât really comment on that but for me quality blunders seems to apply through out the price range. ...
agree that the anglage point ...
By: ChristianDK : September 4th, 2018-06:38
where the screw is - is not pretty - but calling it blunder is not fair. It is a difficult geometry at that specific point when you need room from the anglage - IMO it is more a question of where the principle of decoration clashes with the technical desi...
Sounds like excuses.
By: tom2517 : September 4th, 2018-07:19
You can defend Patek itâs fine but to me It could have been done better. Check Credor Eichi II where the counter sink meets the anglage, itâs not twisted like that Patek. I think whoever did the anglage on that Patek movement just messed up, not by design...
Here I found a pix of Eichi II
By: tom2517 : September 4th, 2018-08:42
If a 50k watch can do this I donât see why a half million dollar watch canât. In fact I would rather believe it was a blunder than Patek doesnât have the capability to do a clean finish in that cut off area. ...
Interesting comparison of how two companies do something very similar...
By: patrick_y : September 4th, 2018-11:11
I'm actually paying more attention to Patek Philippe's finishing on the beveled edge of the screw hole. You can clearly see the Patek Philippe's polished screw hole has some imperfection (dispersed consistent scratch marks due to mediocre polishing).
Yes, you are correct
By: tom2517 : September 4th, 2018-19:40
Thatâs why originally I said there is one blunder and other areas that could be better. You have pointed out one of them.
Again with the excuses
By: tom2517 : September 6th, 2018-13:45
If another brand does it better by hand, why wouldnât it be an area where Patek can improve?
You really should own vintage....
By: enjoythemusic : September 7th, 2018-03:07
i remember Patek decades ago, it was a different, truly caring company back then. The new mass produced Pateks are just a shadow of what the company once was in the quality of finishing and detail department (and dare we add customer service). Gave up on ...
I would love to
By: tom2517 : September 7th, 2018-03:36
Except they cost so damn much!
I think you are over simplifying
By: ChristianDK : September 4th, 2018-06:18
As it is pretty clear to most, that the the Patek improves in several stages. In terms of anglage on the min plates and main bridges on lange, I find it quite industrial and angular compared to high end Patek.
Incandenza, I can only agree with you. On all points.
By: amanico : September 3rd, 2018-14:58
First of all, your 5970 is superb. A reference I always considered. And when I think that the P, when it was unveiled, was at the same price than the G... On the markets. I have the same feeling than you on the finishings of the in house chrono movements,...
Well said!
By: patrick_y : September 4th, 2018-11:17
Another reason why I like Lange (and I like Patek Philippe very much as well) watches because their low end and high end all exhibit very good and fairly equal levels of finishing (except early 1815 models had some missing finishing on parts you couldn't ...
Very interesting thoughts
By: lascases : September 3rd, 2018-23:01
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Another problem seem to be the dials: PP is now producing them with reduced complexity as well. In earlier times there were angles and declining surfaces (sub-dials) etc. Today they avoid all this, making the watches look...
I humbly disagree...
By: patrick_y : September 4th, 2018-01:05
The finishing on Patek Philippe, which is one of my favorite brands, unfortunately is not usually as good as a Datograph movement from A. Lange & Soehne. On average, most Patek Philippe watches, including their grand complications, will not pass muster wi...
Have to disagree on some points!
By: Langeholic : September 4th, 2018-01:31
I own a Dato, 5270, 5970 and 5370 amongst many other Chronograph/Rattrapanteâs and am generally more interested in movements than aesthetics. I agree that more attention is given to Patek finishing at the grand complication level. The 5370 finishing is no...
Not using a Patek base caliber...
By: lascases : September 4th, 2018-02:16
.... is in line with their chronograph heritage until very recently. In this case it is not a disadvantage but a quality linked to their corporate history. Seems relevant to me.
Totally understand that, but the landscape has dramatically changed......
By: Langeholic : September 4th, 2018-02:36
......and today we expect more considering the astronomical prices being charged. If Iâm paying $10k for a timepiece, I can accept a 3rd party movement, even the RRP when the 5970 launched was relatively reasonable compared to todayâs prices. Today we are...
While I see your logic...
By: lascases : September 4th, 2018-06:25
... the heritage of a Lemania based PP chrono could also be considered more interesting as it is in line with their (historical and therefore important) development...
Let me clarify.....
By: Langeholic : September 4th, 2018-09:27
Not taking anything away from Lamania movements, they are sublime and the have a significant history indeed. My issue is when one expects to buy a Patek, they expect a Patek movement and all.
The car analogy doesnât work for me
By: Baron - Mr Red : September 4th, 2018-04:31
2499 doesnât have an in-house movement and itâs star shines still. Such a watch isnât analysed as a âsum of the partsâ process. Rather, there is a holistic approach to it that recognised that something of greatness canât be easily defined. Just like the g...
Itâs all relative....
By: Langeholic : September 4th, 2018-05:39
The 2499 belonged to an era that Patek was at the forefront of innovation in horology, very few brands could compete. Even during its time, it stood out as a champion of that era despite its imperfections. It was rare practice for any brand to make such c...
It's all relative....
By: Langeholic : September 4th, 2018-05:49
The 2499 belonged to an era that Patek was at the forefront of innovation in horology, very few brands could compete. Even during its time, it stood out as a champion of that era despite its imperfections. It was rare practice for any brand to make such c...
very interesting points worth a discussion..
By: ChristianDK : September 4th, 2018-07:11
I highly respect the 5970 and covet it. I believe your views of the watch as a repetition of the past / lazy and perhaps holding a grain of truth.I believe Jason Singer expressed a similar view a while back, here on this forum. But when is something just ...
You raise a good point Christian
By: Langeholic : September 6th, 2018-14:25
So Porsche and Rolex can be accused of the same thing, but Porsche nor Rolex charge the premium that Patek charges.....Yes they are âluxuryâ brands, but Rolex is a bargain compared to Patek. I would be equally critical of Bugatti or Rolls Royce who claim ...
A fair perspective...
By: patrick_y : September 4th, 2018-11:24
I was first a little surprised when you said the 5970 was a little "lazy" and I started wondering what could you mean by that. But after I read your post in its entirety, I think I better understood where you're coming from and it's a fair assessment. Now...
Interesting to read this thread... but
By: thomaspp : September 4th, 2018-07:59
For many long-time/hardcore (whatever you want to call it) collectors that I know and whom I speak with, the in-house Patek manually winding chronographs are now not even on the radar to be truthful and all the focus is on valjoux and lemania Patek manual...
The problem with the new caliber...
By: lascases : September 4th, 2018-10:11
... is the higher production number (today and future). In contrast, the Lemania base is no longer being used, was made in (roughly) known (comparatively smaller) numbers, is tied to Pateks history and has an excellent finish. Also, the cases were typical...
Yeah yeah
By: Mostel : September 5th, 2018-16:18
This is an old story now... but you captured a supreme classic. The Thierry Era is ... 'different.'