Langeholic
394
It’s all relative....
The 2499 belonged to an era that Patek was at the forefront of innovation in horology, very few brands could compete. Even during its time, it stood out as a champion of that era despite its imperfections. It was rare practice for any brand to make such complicated in-house movements, so outsourcing was a necessity for survival. This fact coupled with auction manipulation of prices by the PP museum has catapulted the 2499 into the hall of fame. I agree it has the X-factor.
Fast forward to modern horology, despite the fact I own one, I find the 5970 a nostalgic attempt to cling onto what made Patek great. It exists in a time when small independents are making in-house movements and doing it with more flair and ingenuity. If Patek claims to be an elite horological brand and expects us to pay a hefty premium for it, I am going to hold them accountable and not just follow the 🐑.
Please don’t get me wrong, I love the aesthetics of the 5970, it is no doubt a beautiful timepiece. Step back for one minute and look at it in a different way, one can argue it is lazy! The aesthetics are a subtle evolution of past models and the mechanism is predominantly built by a 3rd party. Whilst the finishing is good, it is not outstanding. Is it really worth above $100k+? Perception clearly indicates so at the moment similar to the 5131 and 5711/12, but only time will tell. It isn’t helped with the aesthetics of the 5270, but at least the 5270 contends with its peers, it holds its head up high and breaks the mould, therefore truly earning its place amongst the elite brands.
In conclusion, had the 5970 existed in the era of the 2499, I would be singing it praise, but it didn’t, it existed during a period of history that saw smaller players producing far better and innovative timepieces. This may seem contentious, but if I was a Stern, I would be ashamed of that period of the companies history. To be number one, a brand needs to be the best they can be at all times and not rest on their laurels.
My new 5970G: some reflections on the decline in Patek's movement finishing
I have had the great fortune to acquire a 5970G, fresh from a service in Geneva. It is a beautiful watch on every level. The dial and the case are obvious standout features, but another aspect of the watch has captivated me: the movement. The movement is ...
Wonderful and a growing classic
I love all lemania based patek Chronos and always thought the finishing was top. I have never owned an in house patek chrono so can’t comment. Best
I suspect....
in years to come, what people will regard as “High-End Finishing” by Patek Philippe will not involve any work done by Philippe has made it very necessary for themselves to produce more watches than ever before. They really are a different company than wh...
I agree with you 100% sir.
What a lovely photographer you are as well as have exquisite taste in your Patek Choice. The 5970 already is recognised as one of the best PCC’s and will only become more so as time goes on. Hope you don’t mind but that movement shot is my new screensaver...
EBIT pressure, as simple as that...
Respectable brand which probably is not anymore what it used to be, they decided to leave amazing finishing only for pieces fhey can charge a retail price with, despite hand finishing, can assure them a hefty margin And then maintain then their status to ...
Highend movements...yeah, right...
Silicoum pallet and escape wheel some movements...very cheap ”hand made ” watches...😄😄
Does this apply to AP, VC , Breguet as all are using the new technology, what about Richard Mille?
Do you think 🤔 using new material and technology lessens a watch? I am interested in your opinion , I find it interesting how collectors think, perhaps you could give some technical aspects to your viewpoint ( which I respect btw) Do you think for instanc...
RM
RM movement to me is fancy design masking a lot of stamped parts. I’m not impressed with their movements. However, I do like the case design because it shows off those movement so well and very recognizable once you know what they look like. To me the RM ...
Thanks for the movement pics and congrats
I was one of the first to see and compare the 5270 and 5970 My conclusions were that aesthetically I find the 5970 much more appealing Technically the 5270 is superior/ the new movement was designed to be easier to service and be more robust/ accurate Fin...
I agree a lot om your points....
I Think they are very valid. I very much appreciate and agree on your remarks regarding Lange finish. I have never dared to express aloud myself in this forum, as I think it goes contrary to commen belief, but I think you are spot on.
Please reconsider...
The 5970's Lemania chronograph movement is beautifully finished. But I would say one has to see both the Patek and the Lange movement at high magnification and determine the polishing quality. Average Patek Philippe to average Lange watch; the Lange defin...
Yeah
From the distance the OP took his pix of the movement even the 240 would look good, needs to be closer and under higher magnification.
agree on this point speaking of the cheaper models
but I am lucky to be able to sometimes have the possibility to play with some of the higher end pieces. There I I dont think lange comes out as the winner-viewed through x4 and x10 loupe - but as I say, that is a controversial view - that I stand by.
This is Patek MR
Clearly there is a major screwup and some areas that could be better. I don’t own any vintage Pateks so can’t really comment on that but for me quality blunders seems to apply through out the price range. ...
agree that the anglage point ...
where the screw is - is not pretty - but calling it blunder is not fair. It is a difficult geometry at that specific point when you need room from the anglage - IMO it is more a question of where the principle of decoration clashes with the technical desi...
Sounds like excuses.
You can defend Patek it’s fine but to me It could have been done better. Check Credor Eichi II where the counter sink meets the anglage, it’s not twisted like that Patek. I think whoever did the anglage on that Patek movement just messed up, not by design...
Here I found a pix of Eichi II
If a 50k watch can do this I don’t see why a half million dollar watch can’t. In fact I would rather believe it was a blunder than Patek doesn’t have the capability to do a clean finish in that cut off area. ...
Interesting comparison of how two companies do something very similar...
I'm actually paying more attention to Patek Philippe's finishing on the beveled edge of the screw hole. You can clearly see the Patek Philippe's polished screw hole has some imperfection (dispersed consistent scratch marks due to mediocre polishing).
Yes, you are correct
That’s why originally I said there is one blunder and other areas that could be better. You have pointed out one of them.
Again with the excuses
If another brand does it better by hand, why wouldn’t it be an area where Patek can improve?
You really should own vintage....
i remember Patek decades ago, it was a different, truly caring company back then. The new mass produced Pateks are just a shadow of what the company once was in the quality of finishing and detail department (and dare we add customer service). Gave up on ...
I think you are over simplifying
As it is pretty clear to most, that the the Patek improves in several stages. In terms of anglage on the min plates and main bridges on lange, I find it quite industrial and angular compared to high end Patek.
Incandenza, I can only agree with you. On all points.
First of all, your 5970 is superb. A reference I always considered. And when I think that the P, when it was unveiled, was at the same price than the G... On the markets. I have the same feeling than you on the finishings of the in house chrono movements,...
I agree, the old Lemania finishing was generally better than the average Patek Philippe finishing. But is even the finishing on an old Lemania superior to a Lange? I'm not so sure...
Really need to compare the two at high magnification and find out. But I do know this; I'd rather own Patek Philippe 5970G over Lange Datograph Perpetual, as I find the latter's moonphase too small.
Sad when my 5960 MSRP $50,000 isn't considered "serious money" by Patek.
Soon the sub $150,000 models won't even be considered "real Pateks". Oh well....
Well said!
Another reason why I like Lange (and I like Patek Philippe very much as well) watches because their low end and high end all exhibit very good and fairly equal levels of finishing (except early 1815 models had some missing finishing on parts you couldn't ...
Congrats on the wonderful incoming!
Having owned several versions of both 5970 and 5270 I wholeheartedly agree here. My end game: ...
Very interesting thoughts
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Another problem seem to be the dials: PP is now producing them with reduced complexity as well. In earlier times there were angles and declining surfaces (sub-dials) etc. Today they avoid all this, making the watches look...
I humbly disagree...
The finishing on Patek Philippe, which is one of my favorite brands, unfortunately is not usually as good as a Datograph movement from A. Lange & Soehne. On average, most Patek Philippe watches, including their grand complications, will not pass muster wi...
Have to disagree on some points!
I own a Dato, 5270, 5970 and 5370 amongst many other Chronograph/Rattrapante’s and am generally more interested in movements than aesthetics. I agree that more attention is given to Patek finishing at the grand complication level. The 5370 finishing is no...
Not using a Patek base caliber...
.... is in line with their chronograph heritage until very recently. In this case it is not a disadvantage but a quality linked to their corporate history. Seems relevant to me.
Totally understand that, but the landscape has dramatically changed......
......and today we expect more considering the astronomical prices being charged. If I’m paying $10k for a timepiece, I can accept a 3rd party movement, even the RRP when the 5970 launched was relatively reasonable compared to today’s prices. Today we are...
While I see your logic...
... the heritage of a Lemania based PP chrono could also be considered more interesting as it is in line with their (historical and therefore important) development...
Let me clarify.....
Not taking anything away from Lamania movements, they are sublime and the have a significant history indeed. My issue is when one expects to buy a Patek, they expect a Patek movement and all.
The car analogy doesn’t work for me
2499 doesn’t have an in-house movement and it’s star shines still. Such a watch isn’t analysed as a “sum of the parts” process. Rather, there is a holistic approach to it that recognised that something of greatness can’t be easily defined. Just like the g...
It’s all relative....
The 2499 belonged to an era that Patek was at the forefront of innovation in horology, very few brands could compete. Even during its time, it stood out as a champion of that era despite its imperfections. It was rare practice for any brand to make such c...
It's all relative....
The 2499 belonged to an era that Patek was at the forefront of innovation in horology, very few brands could compete. Even during its time, it stood out as a champion of that era despite its imperfections. It was rare practice for any brand to make such c...
very interesting points worth a discussion..
I highly respect the 5970 and covet it. I believe your views of the watch as a repetition of the past / lazy and perhaps holding a grain of truth.I believe Jason Singer expressed a similar view a while back, here on this forum. But when is something just ...
You raise a good point Christian
So Porsche and Rolex can be accused of the same thing, but Porsche nor Rolex charge the premium that Patek charges.....Yes they are “luxury” brands, but Rolex is a bargain compared to Patek. I would be equally critical of Bugatti or Rolls Royce who claim ...
The reason for them to go inhouse...
... was that Lemania discontinued delivery of the base caliber.
A fair perspective...
I was first a little surprised when you said the 5970 was a little "lazy" and I started wondering what could you mean by that. But after I read your post in its entirety, I think I better understood where you're coming from and it's a fair assessment. Now...
Interesting to read this thread... but
For many long-time/hardcore (whatever you want to call it) collectors that I know and whom I speak with, the in-house Patek manually winding chronographs are now not even on the radar to be truthful and all the focus is on valjoux and lemania Patek manual...
The problem with the new caliber...
... is the higher production number (today and future). In contrast, the Lemania base is no longer being used, was made in (roughly) known (comparatively smaller) numbers, is tied to Pateks history and has an excellent finish. Also, the cases were typical...
Yeah yeah
This is an old story now... but you captured a supreme classic. The Thierry Era is ... 'different.'
