Comments:
My new 5970G: some reflections on the decline in Patek's movement finishing
I have had the great fortune to acquire a 5970G, fresh from a service in Geneva. It is a beautiful watch on every level.
The dial and the case are obvious standout features, but another aspect of the watch has captivated me: the movement.
The movement is based on the Lemania calibre that we know and love, and which appears in a number of much cheaper watches. And yet it is finished in an absolutely stunning way. See the photo below for an example.
In part, the quality of the finishing is attributable to the architecture of the movement. There are several places where the bridges contain interior angles, and these are much more difficult to finish (and much more impressive when done properly) than other types of angles. The finishing quality is truly top-notch. In some ways, it is significantly better than Lange. I have owned a Datograph and, whilst the colour palette of the movement and the overall architecture are absolutely stunning, I never found the anglage to be particularly great. The 5970 does not have anything like the depth of the Datograph movement, but I genuinely believe that the overall finishing is more artisanal and subtle.
I was surprised by the quality of the movement because, in my experience, Patek does not excel at movement finishing. The recent in-house chronograph calibre is shiny and attractive, but it appears to have been designed in a way which deliberately eliminates all interior angles (and thus greatly reduces the need for any serious hand finishing). The main Patek base calibres - i.e. 240, 320, and CH29 - are not particularly well finished. It is a real shame that Patek did not continue the noble tradition of hand finishing that is exhibited in the 5970.
These days, to get any serious hand finishing on a Patek, you need to spend serious money. You need to buy a 5370 (where the rattrapante movement is extremely striking) or a 5959 or a 3939, which cost far more than a 5970G (at least at the current, rather soft, secondary market prices).
Why did Patek decide to end the tradition of hand finishing for all but the most expensive pieces?
Wonderful and a growing classic
I love all lemania based patek Chronos and always thought the finishing was top. I have never owned an in house patek chrono so can’t comment. Best
I suspect....
in years to come, what people will regard as “High-End Finishing” by Patek Philippe will not involve any work done by hand.Patek Philippe has made it very necessary for themselves to produce more watches than ever before. They really are a different company than when I started collecting in the 1990’s. They are SO big now and getting bigger.The “Ultra High -End” must be the only niche where it makes financial sense for them to take the extra time and care (and spend the money). Patek service ( in my experience) is not what it used to be either.
Seven to eight months of waiting and thousands of dollars spent does not mean that your watch will arrive back to you in perfect working order. I feel that they have gotten much bigger than they really should be in order to produce ( and maintain) the product that they promise. Truth be known, I still love the brand and I own several of their watches. I don’t own any of the new material though.
I agree with you 100% sir.
What a lovely photographer you are as well as have exquisite taste in your Patek Choice.
The 5970 already is recognised as one of the best PCC’s and will only become more so as time goes on.
Hope you don’t mind but that movement shot is my new screensaver. 🙏🏼👍🏼😎
Enjoy your new masterpiece.
Miles.
The 5970 already is recognised as one of the best PCC’s and will only become more so as time goes on.
Hope you don’t mind but that movement shot is my new screensaver. 🙏🏼👍🏼😎
Enjoy your new masterpiece.
Miles.
EBIT pressure, as simple as that...
Respectable brand which probably is not anymore what it used to be, they decided to leave amazing finishing only for pieces fhey can charge a retail price with, despite hand finishing, can assure them a hefty margin
And then maintain then their status to increase by 20% the Nautilus tange in one day with no particular reason, reducing only a bit the production hence the availability
My 2 cents
Beat
Luca
And then maintain then their status to increase by 20% the Nautilus tange in one day with no particular reason, reducing only a bit the production hence the availability
My 2 cents
Beat
Luca
Highend movements...yeah, right...
Silicoum pallet and escape wheel some movements...very cheap ”hand made ” watches...😄😄
Does this apply to AP, VC , Breguet as all are using the new technology, what about Richard Mille?
Do you think 🤔 using new material and technology lessens a watch?
I am interested in your opinion , I find it interesting how collectors think, perhaps you could give some technical aspects to your viewpoint ( which I respect btw)
Do you think for instance moving from swan neck to gyromax was similarly a retrograde step?
Best
Imran
I am interested in your opinion , I find it interesting how collectors think, perhaps you could give some technical aspects to your viewpoint ( which I respect btw)
Do you think for instance moving from swan neck to gyromax was similarly a retrograde step?
Best
Imran
RM
RM movement to me is fancy design masking a lot of stamped parts. I’m not impressed with their movements. However, I do like the case design because it shows off those movement so well and very recognizable once you know what they look like. To me the RM case is the magic bullet to their watches.
Thanks for the movement pics and congrats
I was one of the first to see and compare the 5270 and 5970
My conclusions were that aesthetically I find the 5970 much more appealing
Technically the 5270 is superior/ the new movement was designed to be easier to service and be more robust/ accurate
Finishing in my opinion was very similar if not identical
The crux of the matter is simple: if you want finishing of a superior quality then get a 2499. If you want to compare vintage finish then modern will never be the same
In terms of production numbers the 5270 is on a par as far as I know in terms of annual production with the 5970.
The 5970 is pretty much the perfect modern Patek, abd certainly in my top 10 post 2000
Congrats again
I agree a lot om your points....
I Think they are very valid.
I very much appreciate and agree on your remarks regarding Lange finish. I have never dared to express aloud myself in this forum, as I think it goes contrary to commen belief, but I think you are spot on.
Please reconsider...
The 5970's Lemania chronograph movement is beautifully finished. But I would say one has to see both the Patek and the Lange movement at high magnification and determine the polishing quality.
Average Patek Philippe to average Lange watch; the Lange definitely wins the finish award.
Please see how the Patek Philippe finish has a lot of "chatter" marks at high magnification in this post and the post within.
www.watchprosite.com
Average Patek Philippe to average Lange watch; the Lange definitely wins the finish award.
Please see how the Patek Philippe finish has a lot of "chatter" marks at high magnification in this post and the post within.
www.watchprosite.com
Yeah
From the distance the OP took his pix of the movement even the 240 would look good, needs to be closer and under higher magnification.
agree on this point speaking of the cheaper models
but I am lucky to be able to sometimes have the possibility to play with some of the higher end pieces. There I I dont think lange comes out as the winner-viewed through x4 and x10 loupe - but as I say, that is a controversial view - that I stand by.
This is Patek MR
Clearly there is a major screwup and some areas that could be better. I don’t own any vintage Pateks so can’t really comment on that but for me quality blunders seems to apply through out the price range.
agree that the anglage point ...
where the screw is - is not pretty - but calling it blunder is not fair. It is a difficult geometry at that specific point when you need room from the anglage - IMO it is more a question of where the principle of decoration clashes with the technical design - they have tried to deal with this, the best they could, and the result is not perfect but it is best possible practice without having to change the design of the movement.The anglage on the bridge is pretty darn good - if not superb. It is amplified by what? - x100? on the screen and it looks pretty semi-circular, smooth and even. As a designer and someone who has to turn a design in to something built - I can very much relate to this situation. Your answer might be - "just change the geometry of the part so you can make the same anglage all the way around." - but at what consequence? the part sometimes is exactly whre it is - and has its shape for a highly specific reason and purpose.
Sounds like excuses.
You can defend Patek it’s fine but to me It could have been done better. Check Credor Eichi II where the counter sink meets the anglage, it’s not twisted like that Patek.
I think whoever did the anglage on that Patek movement just messed up, not by design.
I think whoever did the anglage on that Patek movement just messed up, not by design.
Here I found a pix of Eichi II
If a 50k watch can do this I don’t see why a half million dollar watch can’t. In fact I would rather believe it was a blunder than Patek doesn’t have the capability to do a clean finish in that cut off area.
Interesting comparison of how two companies do something very similar...
I'm actually paying more attention to Patek Philippe's finishing on the beveled edge of the screw hole. You can clearly see the Patek Philippe's polished screw hole has some imperfection (dispersed consistent scratch marks due to mediocre polishing).
Yes, you are correct
That’s why originally I said there is one blunder and other areas that could be better. You have pointed out one of them.
MEDIOCRE polishing??? - Really??? It’s magnified by x100 and you find a small flaw. Its nor perfect and It’s done by hand - remember.... 🙄 [nt]
No message body
Again with the excuses
If another brand does it better by hand, why wouldn’t it be an area where Patek can improve?
You really should own vintage....
i remember Patek decades ago, it was a different, truly caring company back then. The new mass produced Pateks are just a shadow of what the company once was in the quality of finishing and detail department (and dare we add customer service). Gave up on the brand when it was obvious things were changing for the worse as their USA service center moved locations at the Rock. We can all agree that at a minimum Patek should reduce their service times to 2 months for normal service. If a company is going to charge a large amount of currency for a mechanical timepiece, customer services should be exceptional. Patek has known this for years, yet
I think you are over simplifying
As it is pretty clear to most, that the the Patek improves in several stages. In terms of anglage on the min plates and main bridges on lange, I find it quite industrial and angular compared to high end Patek.
Incandenza, I can only agree with you. On all points.
First of all, your 5970 is superb. A reference I always considered. And when I think that the P, when it was unveiled, was at the same price than the G... On the markets.
I have the same feeling than you on the finishings of the in house chrono movements, or on the Cal 240. Nice to look at, but not decorated at the level I would expect. Even if Patek is able to elevate the level of decoration, as you stated, but you have to pay another price...
The old Lemania movements were better, on that aspect, which is one of the reason why some prefer it to the in house movement.
I guess it is because Patek wants to make more watches... I think you are right.
Best,
Nicolas