Patek Philippe

I have had the great fortune to acquire a 5970G, fresh from a service in Geneva. It is a beautiful watch on every level. The dial and the case are obvious standout features, but another aspect of the watch has captivated me: the movement. The movement is ...  

I love all lemania based patek Chronos and always thought the finishing was top. I have never owned an in house patek chrono so can’t comment. Best

in years to come, what people will regard as “High-End Finishing” by Patek Philippe will not involve any work done by Philippe has made it very necessary for themselves to produce more watches than ever before. They really are a different company than wh... 

What a lovely photographer you are as well as have exquisite taste in your Patek Choice. The 5970 already is recognised as one of the best PCC’s and will only become more so as time goes on. Hope you don’t mind but that movement shot is my new screensaver... 

Amazing piece!

Respectable brand which probably is not anymore what it used to be, they decided to leave amazing finishing only for pieces fhey can charge a retail price with, despite hand finishing, can assure them a hefty margin And then maintain then their status to ... 

Silicoum pallet and escape wheel some movements...very cheap ”hand made ” watches...😄😄

Do you think 🤔 using new material and technology lessens a watch? I am interested in your opinion , I find it interesting how collectors think, perhaps you could give some technical aspects to your viewpoint ( which I respect btw) Do you think for instanc... 

RM movement to me is fancy design masking a lot of stamped parts. I’m not impressed with their movements. However, I do like the case design because it shows off those movement so well and very recognizable once you know what they look like. To me the RM ... 

I was one of the first to see and compare the 5270 and 5970 My conclusions were that aesthetically I find the 5970 much more appealing Technically the 5270 is superior/ the new movement was designed to be easier to service and be more robust/ accurate Fin...  

I Think they are very valid. I very much appreciate and agree on your remarks regarding Lange finish. I have never dared to express aloud myself in this forum, as I think it goes contrary to commen belief, but I think you are spot on.

The 5970's Lemania chronograph movement is beautifully finished. But I would say one has to see both the Patek and the Lange movement at high magnification and determine the polishing quality. Average Patek Philippe to average Lange watch; the Lange defin... 

From the distance the OP took his pix of the movement even the 240 would look good, needs to be closer and under higher magnification.

as i dont think we are discussing "his pix" but movement finish.

From that distance many movement would look nice.

but I am lucky to be able to sometimes have the possibility to play with some of the higher end pieces. There I I dont think lange comes out as the winner-viewed through x4 and x10 loupe - but as I say, that is a controversial view - that I stand by.

Clearly there is a major screwup and some areas that could be better. I don’t own any vintage Pateks so can’t really comment on that but for me quality blunders seems to apply through out the price range. ...  

where the screw is - is not pretty - but calling it blunder is not fair. It is a difficult geometry at that specific point when you need room from the anglage - IMO it is more a question of where the principle of decoration clashes with the technical desi... 

You can defend Patek it’s fine but to me It could have been done better. Check Credor Eichi II where the counter sink meets the anglage, it’s not twisted like that Patek. I think whoever did the anglage on that Patek movement just messed up, not by design...  

If a 50k watch can do this I don’t see why a half million dollar watch can’t. In fact I would rather believe it was a blunder than Patek doesn’t have the capability to do a clean finish in that cut off area. ...  

I'm actually paying more attention to Patek Philippe's finishing on the beveled edge of the screw hole. You can clearly see the Patek Philippe's polished screw hole has some imperfection (dispersed consistent scratch marks due to mediocre polishing).

That’s why originally I said there is one blunder and other areas that could be better. You have pointed out one of them.

If another brand does it better by hand, why wouldn’t it be an area where Patek can improve?

i remember Patek decades ago, it was a different, truly caring company back then. The new mass produced Pateks are just a shadow of what the company once was in the quality of finishing and detail department (and dare we add customer service). Gave up on ... 

Except they cost so damn much!

As it is pretty clear to most, that the the Patek improves in several stages. In terms of anglage on the min plates and main bridges on lange, I find it quite industrial and angular compared to high end Patek.

First of all, your 5970 is superb. A reference I always considered. And when I think that the P, when it was unveiled, was at the same price than the G... On the markets. I have the same feeling than you on the finishings of the in house chrono movements,... 

Really need to compare the two at high magnification and find out. But I do know this; I'd rather own Patek Philippe 5970G over Lange Datograph Perpetual, as I find the latter's moonphase too small.

Soon the sub $150,000 models won't even be considered "real Pateks". Oh well....

Another reason why I like Lange (and I like Patek Philippe very much as well) watches because their low end and high end all exhibit very good and fairly equal levels of finishing (except early 1815 models had some missing finishing on parts you couldn't ... 

Having owned several versions of both 5970 and 5270 I wholeheartedly agree here. My end game: ...  

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Another problem seem to be the dials: PP is now producing them with reduced complexity as well. In earlier times there were angles and declining surfaces (sub-dials) etc. Today they avoid all this, making the watches look... 

The finishing on Patek Philippe, which is one of my favorite brands, unfortunately is not usually as good as a Datograph movement from A. Lange & Soehne. On average, most Patek Philippe watches, including their grand complications, will not pass muster wi... 

I own a Dato, 5270, 5970 and 5370 amongst many other Chronograph/Rattrapante’s and am generally more interested in movements than aesthetics. I agree that more attention is given to Patek finishing at the grand complication level. The 5370 finishing is no... 

.... is in line with their chronograph heritage until very recently. In this case it is not a disadvantage but a quality linked to their corporate history. Seems relevant to me.

......and today we expect more considering the astronomical prices being charged. If I’m paying $10k for a timepiece, I can accept a 3rd party movement, even the RRP when the 5970 launched was relatively reasonable compared to today’s prices. Today we are... 

... the heritage of a Lemania based PP chrono could also be considered more interesting as it is in line with their (historical and therefore important) development...

Not taking anything away from Lamania movements, they are sublime and the have a significant history indeed. My issue is when one expects to buy a Patek, they expect a Patek movement and all.

2499 doesn’t have an in-house movement and it’s star shines still. Such a watch isn’t analysed as a “sum of the parts” process. Rather, there is a holistic approach to it that recognised that something of greatness can’t be easily defined. Just like the g... 

The 2499 belonged to an era that Patek was at the forefront of innovation in horology, very few brands could compete. Even during its time, it stood out as a champion of that era despite its imperfections. It was rare practice for any brand to make such c... 

The 2499 belonged to an era that Patek was at the forefront of innovation in horology, very few brands could compete. Even during its time, it stood out as a champion of that era despite its imperfections. It was rare practice for any brand to make such c... 

I highly respect the 5970 and covet it. I believe your views of the watch as a repetition of the past / lazy and perhaps holding a grain of truth.I believe Jason Singer expressed a similar view a while back, here on this forum. But when is something just ... 

So Porsche and Rolex can be accused of the same thing, but Porsche nor Rolex charge the premium that Patek charges.....Yes they are “luxury” brands, but Rolex is a bargain compared to Patek. I would be equally critical of Bugatti or Rolls Royce who claim ... 

... was that Lemania discontinued delivery of the base caliber.

I was first a little surprised when you said the 5970 was a little "lazy" and I started wondering what could you mean by that. But after I read your post in its entirety, I think I better understood where you're coming from and it's a fair assessment. Now... 

For many long-time/hardcore (whatever you want to call it) collectors that I know and whom I speak with, the in-house Patek manually winding chronographs are now not even on the radar to be truthful and all the focus is on valjoux and lemania Patek manual... 

... is the higher production number (today and future). In contrast, the Lemania base is no longer being used, was made in (roughly) known (comparatively smaller) numbers, is tied to Pateks history and has an excellent finish. Also, the cases were typical... 

Most enlightening!

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This is an old story now... but you captured a supreme classic. The Thierry Era is ... 'different.'