Mark in Paris
[Purist]
10488
I saw some interviews last year
with TS and it seemed to me that it was more about the Swiss and price bases that allow high end brands to sell at these prices. The issue arouse especially when Tag was considering launching a Tourbillon at a very low price. Thierre Stern said that there was no better way to damage the foundations on which high end watchmaking is based on. Especially since the finsihing and work was not the same.
We can certainly make 5K€ Tourbillon in China but I'm not sure the impact on the market, the brands (workforce downsizing, earnings drop, heritage damage...), even the watches we own won't be catastrophic.
Today Patek is among the brands that remain quite stable despite the current economical slow down. The pressure on demand was very high these last years, thus today's demand is, though lower, still at an acceptable level.
I'm not saying everything is fine and Patek is not concerned by how the market evolves today but just that they are not "back at the wall" and that they are quite in a good position, especially compared to their competitors.
I still don't have the answer about the thread's issue but I still think there is something very weird in that story and will wait to see what Geneva says officially.
Best, Mark
Patek Denying Warranty? (and answer in the end)
It appears NYC Patek is denying warranty to owners of timepieces if they are not the original owner. Thus if you buy a Patek from an AD and then sell it, there is now zero warranty. The basic two year warranty does not transfer in the USA. Am curious why ...
I'm surprised about that
I would be very surprised that a watch looses its 2-year warranty if the owner changes (except if there is a special law in the US but I would then have thought it applied to any other brands as well). Can you please communicate your official source? Than...
Hi Mark
I can\'t remember the official rules of this forum posting materials from/referencing other forums but there\'s a pretty substantive thread on the The Rolex Forums. A member there emailed Pat at HSWA and reported he was given the below response: "FYI... P...
Thanks a lot Willski for the details
I'm very surprised and will try to have some infos about it. Best, Mark
I had a look at my Warranty Certificate
Before I might get additional infos, I had a look at the terms in English of my certificate as some people said they could look ambiguous. The papers also provide a French version of the text. It says the watch is under the 2-year warranty if the certific...
That's what I thought too. The owner had to present the original certificate of origin, properly completed by an AD...
So a subsequent owner would have the warranty for the balance of the two years if they could satisfy those requirements.
I do not know if this is true
but if it is... it would be another easy path to resenting Patek.... I HOPE it's not true because Patek is too easy to resent and dislike, and needs no help hurting itself in the Thierry era... I find it hard to believe actually only because Thierry is 'a...
Allow me to digress a little :-)
but I noticed you mentioned that Thierry is 'against the wall' these days. Please excuse my ignorance but is Patek not doing well or simply not as good as it used to do?!
Hi Sham
I refer to the recent interview with Thierry where he threw cold water on Tag Heuer, referring to a watch they created as 'a joke'. The watch was not Swiss enough for him, and the price reflected this absurdity. I was only referring to the fact that Thier...
I saw some interviews last year
with TS and it seemed to me that it was more about the Swiss and price bases that allow high end brands to sell at these prices. The issue arouse especially when Tag was considering launching a Tourbillon at a very low price. Thierre Stern said that there...
Thak you Mark
I hope you and everyone can see in my post that I ask us all what we know about this. I think it was certainly provocative that Thierry called a TH watch 'a joke.' I admit I find it all gossipy and intriguing. So I ask all of us what we think, feel, and m...
Many questions, especially these days with the slow down
The times they are all facing now will bring for sure some reason and order in that field For the best! Mark
Thanks!
Tag Heuer I do not believe is a competitor as far as Patek is concerned and Patek would be more worried about what Vacheron did for example. I would like to think that Thierry was more concerned about the Swiss watch industry as a whole when making those ...
http://www.patek.com/en/retail-network/certificate-of-origin
No mention Guarantee is not transferable.
Maybe its just the HSWA?
I think this should be cleared if its just the policy in the USA or PP in General worldwide? If it is, they should clearly state when this started as most of us assume that the warranty is transeferable Benz
This is sounding like "fake news" to me.
It makes no sense, and as others have mentioned, it does not appear to be part of the requirement as set forth by Patek on their COO. If the watch is purchased from an AD, and the papers are properly completed, I have a hard time believing that Patek woul...
If you check the source...
You will see that the reply was from HSWA on company letterhead. I also have a hard time believing this, and want to hear from other sources as well.
Not fake news.
My watch was purchased from an AD in March of 2015. The paper is stamped and dated by the AD, but HSWA say they will not honor the warranty b/c I am not the original owner.
I doubt that is the case in the US, not sure that is legal.
I would be all over social medial if that was the case. They should follow the MB&F warranty policy where through the end of 2016 they offered a free two year warranty to the owners who registered their watch, that is true customer service in standing beh...
the easiest way is to write to pp geneva
to get an official clarification. this looks like some personal interpretation by an uninformed pp staff esp when it was mentioned that this policy is clearly stated on the certificate of origin which is clearly not the case and if so this would mean this...
That's my feeling too
I think that there was a misunderstanding in the US and I don't believe this is true. But that's just my personal thoughts. I'll post an answer if I get one. Best, Mark
If this is true. Class-action-suit would be the only outcome.
In my copy of an original certificate, it states: "The guarantee is valid only for timepieces accompanied by a signed, dated and stamped Certificate of Origin given to the purchaser by the Authorized Patek Philippe retailer from whom the watch was purchas...
As I wrote above
this is how I understand the Certificate's text, in English but also in French (the latter is even clearer). I would be very surprised... Best, Mark
Since ETM is shy about linking to the threads where this has just come to light, I’ll do it instead.
First appeared on WUS, then the same member posted on TRF– where it has gained a fair bit more traction. FWIW, Pat is the senior customer service person – not sure his exact title – but I spoke with a very personable chap (Richard) this afternoon, and he’...
It is not a problem about being "shy" but a problem about speading a faulse or valid info
And yet, there is still a doubt. Thank you for your detailled and clear post PJ S. I think that we have a quite clear idea of what was observed. I have no doubt that the story started in good faith and that the question deserves an answer, especially as s...
Am not shy...
Just wasn't sure linking one web discussion from another board to here, yet yes it originated on The Rolex Forum's Patek section. Here's a link to that thread www.rolexforums.com
And we appreciate that.
Especially as I always thought that before spreading on the net, it could be good to validate an info and that if someone has a problem localy he can also ask directly the brand's HQ, whatever the brand is. Then, depending on the answer, he can go tell th...
As someone with a grey market PP
I have my doubts, but am testing this right now. I have a second hand Patek 5890 Blue dial. it just went out of warranty but i went to Shrieve & Co (Palo Alto California). they said they were requesting my repair be done under warranty (small booger o...
Grey or AD purchased?
But is yours a grey market watch (as you suggest in the title) or was it purchased new from an AD by the original owner - big difference?
i think this thread is resolved but..
Just to clarify. i may be using the word "grey" wrong. I am the second owner of my PP 5980. i bought it with all box and papers including Cert of origin with the original owners name and a signature from AD who sold it. All legit. I just noticed a cosmeti...
If you have
the warranty in your hand, how can Patek decide, that you are the first owner of the watch or only a second-hand owner? As far as I know, the registration of the ownership is voluntary by Patek and it is not a condition for the warranty! Just my thoughts....
Ownership
In fact Adam, the warranty certificate must show the name of the purchaser, the date, the stamp of the AD and signature. Hence, the name of the second owner doesn't show on the papers. Best, Mark
Perhaps some discretion will be applied..,
I can understand the predicament. If you buy a new Patek, you want the warranty to apply for the full two years from date of purchase from the AD. After all you are paying for it. And it adds to the value of the watch if you decide to sell it. And I under...
enjoythemusic is correct. He is referring to my watch.
My BIL took my PP 5396 to HSWA in NYC for service and he was told that the factory 2 yr. warranty is non transferable. My pre-owned watch still have about 2 months remaining on the factory warranty, but HSWA say they will not honor the remaining two month...
Ok, let's assume all this is true...
And it's not just an isolated event that's now resulted in mass hysteria hyped by the Internet. Notwithstanding that it seems to be in violatation U.S. consumer law, how exactly does Patek enforce said policy? In other words, when presented with a valid C...
It isn’t a one-off or isolated case – as per a reply on the forum in the second link, I mentioned that the lady I spoke with on the same day...
that Dancing Fire posted his thread in WUS, stated that it has been an ongoing issue for people who’ve been gifted a watch by family/etc. I have no doubt that in those instances, the owner has phoned the buyer, who has spoken with HSWA, and the warranty r...
There would be multiple issues if true...
but let's see before what Geneva's official position and discover what exactly happened there. Our discussion will then be more accurate imho. Mark
Well in my case..
I wrote a note with my address and phone # stating the problem with the watch. My BIL told HSWA that I was not the original owner but he does have a copy of the CoO which show the watch was purchased on March 2015. stamped by an AD. Nowhere does it say on...
I didn't notice that either on the certificate.
I think you should write to Geneva's HQ in order to have the final word. That's how I would do if I were you, living in the US, just to confirm that very strange answer from HSWA (especially since, it is not the case worldwide, first mistake, and that it ...
That is scary, or disappointing or both...
For the example your provided. Several things come to mind. I live in NYC and have the flexibility to go to HSWA if I need a watch serviced. Many people don't live close by, don't have the time or flexibility and may rely on somebody taking the watch in f...
I completely agree, this is my feeling too.
I think what you wrote is the spirit I understand and that's how things should be handled. We forget how good Patek handles situations for their customers. I see examples every year. This being said, there seems here to be another issue about the fact tha...
Questions for the Lawyers/Solicitors/Barristers/QCs out there...
Since this is a Consumer Rights legal contract issue now... What if I purchase a couple of watches under my name. Then I realize I have eaten too much foie gras and drunk way too much champagne (on the fifth floor of the Geneva Salon) and my liver is fail...
There would be consequences to how it is working for sure
Let's have Geneva's position or confirmation first, then I'm sure we'll discuss about this. Best, Mark
Of course they are
as they should. The warranty is a personal contract between PP and the original owner. All contract warranties require privity of contract which means they are agreements between the actual parties to the contract here PP and the original owner. The confu...
That's an interesting view.
And it could indeed be a possibility but I imagine it can be more a vision you can have in the US because in Europe (at least in France) it doesn't work that way. When you buy something under warranty the warranty is normally linked to the object and not ...
Unfortunately you’re wrong, Bob – unless that’s explicitly only in the USA, which I don’t believe is the case.
A manufacturer warranty, when provided in written form, applies to the product such that it functions as intended and is free from manufacturing defects. None of that, and whatever else the warranty covers, changes as a result of who owns the product – wh...
This does not apply to U.K.
I have email confirmation that warrant follows watch not owner. I am awaiting confirmation from Geneva on Theo stance
Who’s Theo Stance or did you mean Thierry’s dance?
Presuming the latter, will he be doing the Carlton Banks or the Hammer Shuffle ? ...
I do not know if I missed the point....
but this looks like much ado about nothing. If I understood correctly there is only a " copy " of the original document not the original itself. Best Regards Edward
Yes, unfortunately the point has flown way over your head.
The person whose watch this thread concerns (also a member here) has been informed that, as he was not the original purchaser of the 5396R – dropped off at HSWA by his bother-in-law, with a datewheel problem (a known issue with the SC 324 movement) – the ...
way over my head....
they have been doing it for past ten years and the customers, whom are mostly above average people never corrected them? Really for ten years? That is not how it works my friend. Disclaimer , I am not a Judge. With respect Edward
All you need is to show them a copy of the CoO for warranty repair.
Anyway, I'd have the original CoO here in Ca.
Yes, I believe you are right....
Dancing Fire , You must show them the Original with your watch not the copy. The seller of the watch on warranty keeps the copy and new owner gets the Original. That's what I think. Than It would make sense for Patek Philippe to respect it. Best Edward
I CALLED PATEK....
They ARE NOT honoring warranty for second owner. This is from Patek NYC H Stern. Time to sell guys.
That’s old news – I confirmed this last week, on the same day DF put the thread up on WUS.
And again yesterday when I spoke with Richard, after reading Martin's email reply from Pat, on TRF. The problem isn’t what HSWA are saying, but why they’re deviating from what is essentially a global policy, and (seemingly) not acting in accordance with U...
Best would be that owners contact Geneva's HQ to have the final word
That's from where I would start.
Slow down Chicken Little
I'm confident that Patek will properly address this issue and we can put all this nonsense finally to rest. If HSWA has gone rogue as the OP's experience would suggest, then I'm sure that Patek Geneva will et them straight. IMO Patek has some work to do t...
Let's just say I'm confident they'll do the right thing.
Whatever benefit, real or imagined, from such a policy is most certainly false economy. Jubilation may not yet be in order, but neither the pessimism of ETM's "time to sell guys", wouldn't you agree?
Looking at the responses to my earlier post
it appears the Mag..-Moss Act in the US does require a Full Warranty to extend to subsequent purchasers during the warranty period, however, a Limited Warranty does not have to so extend. The question then is the PP a full or limited warranty?
As per the ftc.gov link that I posted on the first page of the TRF thread...
[quote] If your warranty contains a provision that restricts who has rights under the warranty, you must include a statement explaining specifically who is covered. For example, if your limited warranty is valid only for the first purchaser, your warranty...
Can a member please post the Email address for their Geneva HQ?
I can't find their Email address.
THE WARRANTY FOLLOWS THE WATCH, NOT THE OWNER!
I just spoke with Patek. So t6his issue should be clear now. Best, Kari
Yes, Kari....
did they also tell you that you need original Certificate of origin not the copy, like you would need a warranty card with any other watch? Curious Best Edward
They did not.
Luckily I have sent a watch just one time for small repairs during the warranty period and nothing was asked. Best, Kari
Confirmation from Geneva
I received confirmation as well that the warranty follows the watch. However it does appear that HSWA has gone rogue which is strange as it\'s a subsidiary of Geneva.
just for clarification,
if HSWA sends the watch to Geneva for repair (as I understand they do with complications above an AC) would the bill be generated from HSWA or from Patek Geneva? If it's the later, than any HSWA policy is moot. Regardless, it seems incredulous that Patek ...
HSWA bills the client. Their profit comes from having an agreed contract rate with Geneva, which is obviously lower than the service charges listed on the Patek website.
Internally handled warranty repairs will be invoiced to Geneva, and I presume the same (for accounting purposes) with the pieces that only Geneva handles. None of which absolves Geneva from supposedly not knowing that HSWA has been misrepresenting the war...
Do we know that for fact?
Whilst HSWA stated this policy has been in force for 10 years we have had enough anecdotal evidence from owners stating that their watches had been repaired under warranty. If this had been going on for 10 years why the sudden riotous indignation??? Would...
Maybe nad maybe not
The problem is that, right now, I don't know and you don't know either. Just to say that we speculate a lot, this issue unveils many question but as long as we don't have the facts, we may drw wrong conclusions. What you presume in your last answer is yet...
========== AS A CONCLUSION ========== (Please Read) ==========
Well everyone, This is indeed an important issue that was adressed for owners. That's a reason why we need always more facts to determine what's real and what isn't. We live in a world of social medias and "journalism" where rumors get more and more power...
To be honest, it would be quite easy for PP Geneva, who has undoubtedly seen this thread...
...to take the initiative and issue a clarification for all of us. Frankly, I would expect nothing less. PP should be fully transparent about its policies. Other than that, I do agree that speculation is not helpful, and what we really need is a formal cl...
I agree John
That would be the next step we need. Since we don't have the info, then only the owners can send the demand to Patek Philippe and get an anwser. That's at least what I would do if I was in the US. Maybe Patek is working on it already? I don't know. Best, ...
Social Media
I was discussing this thread on another forum with PP today. Whilst they monitor social media they are not in a position to participate in the forums. Thus invariably leads the poster to hold all the power as they cannot refute some of the statements. The...
Geneva
The impression I got from Geneva is that it\'s PP policy to follow the watch! They were contacting HSWA today to clarify to them. So let\'s see
This received from Patek Philippe SA, via e-mail.
[quote] Dear “PJ S”, Thank you for your mail Please be advised, the Product Warranty is covered , worldwide, for a period of 24 months from the dated of the purchase. A Certificate of Origin was issued for any watch. Among other information, it indicates ...
Thanks a lot for sharing your request to Patek Philippe SA
I think that it is quite clear now. Now, owners who may hear otherwise should be able to ask their dealer/service center to contact Patek HQ or contact Patek directly. As I said, I was very surprised and I hope that from now on things will come in order. ...
Gray Market
There really is no gray market for PP watches as all the new watches are only sold by authorized agents with the original papers. When you buy an unworn watch at a huge discount from a non Patek retailor they either bought it from a retail purchaser or an...
Than you can safely assume .....
that these "Gray market" watches will be covered by third party warranty not Patek's . Cheers Edward
Maybe, maybe not.
What I think watch-er is referring to is a "brokerage" system that has grown up around the Patek trade. Quite a few ADs have too many Pateks on hand and can't move them, so no turnover, no money and no new Pateks, or whatever else the dealer sells. Along ...
Makes sense.
....thank you Padj for this insight. I noticed one US dealer claiming to be a Patek online AD, but they offer only their own warranty. Maybe a loophole . Best Edward
If you get a watch
with your name on the papers, no problem with the warranty. But, we do see third party dealers offering their own warranties on new unworn watches. So they may believe the warranty does not follow the watch. I personally do not put much stack in a re-sell...
Thank you for explaining Watch-er....
no grey market, but maybe they put their own warranty on new Patek watches to avoid a fee from them for each watch sold? The chances of a warranty issue is so low that it would cost them more to commit to Pateks repair? After all they sell a brand new wat...
How the grey market scum defeat the warranty issue.
They offer their own warranty. Yea right ...... if you trust them.
off topic but a related question...
If HSWA sends their complicated watches requiring repair off to Geneva, then how do the grey markey vendors perform their warrantee services? Are there skilled independent service centers here in the States that have watchmakers capable of such repair? I ...
A certified watchmaker with experience can repair most movements....
But I would prefer to entrust my Patek Philippe to the Brands skilled people and superior service. Best Regards Edward
hmmm
Have seen some service horror stories lately, not to mention ridiculous wait time. Hard to know who to "entrust" your PP with these days.
There actually is a place in NYC that claims the ability to work on any (I think) complication Patek can through at it.
It is a very reputable Gallery that sells the highest end pre-owned watches. I have no idea about turn-around times and prices.
This is not a big deal
Most people buy their Patek from a AD as they should. All this really hurts is the grey market dealer. I\'ve often said once a greymarket dealer gets a watch to resell it becomes a pre-owned watch. He should represent it as such and offer his own warranty...
Good news from HSWA
I received an Email from HSWA today. HSWA say they will honor the warranty. Thanks to all the helpful members here especially PJS for contacting PP.
Good news
I had update the conclusion a few days ago with my answer here: www.watchprosite.com Glad to see that things have come back in order Best, Mark
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