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Thank you for your reply Mohammad
I do not believe Patek do well at auctions and have a better resale value due to advertisements since many brands like Rolex, Omega and Longines do advertise a lot more extensively and are also major sponsors of various events and yet only Rolex do well at auctions. Why? Because of their superior and robust product. I am also pretty sure that your stating that the auctions prices are manipulated by Patek staff is unfounded for two reasons:
1. The end buyer of any rare and sought after Patek at an auction is not ignorant and knows exactly how much he would be willing to pay for the watch even before the auction. Any alleged price manipulation would not be effective and might even result in the alleged Patek staff ending up having to buy the watch. This is not logical and way too risky.
2. The Caliber 89 as I had mentioned in my previous post did not sell even though it remains one of the most complicated and rarest of Pateks. If what you say is true, that watch should have sold with little problem but with that watch, the auctioneer had arguably started the bidding at too high a price.
Vacheron started business in 1755 while Patek started in 1839. In those 84 years, Europe's monarchy ruled their countries proudly and expended a lot of money on luxury items including watches. It is with little doubt that during this period many royal families did purchase Vacherons and Breguets as Patek did not exist until later. However, since Patek's inception in 1839, many European royalties and nobilites did purchase Pateks as they did Cartiers which was founded around the same period. So to compare, one has to compare like with like - did the monarchs buy more Vacherons than Pateks since 1839? I do not think so. If anything, many bought Cartiers rather than a Vacheron or Patek. Patek Philippe is where it is at present for 5 reasons and is best summed up by John Reardon, International head of watches at Christies - the relative scarcity of the models, the investment value, the understated design of its watches, the archives, the DNA of the brand - the balance of the quality, artistry and craftsmanship is unrivalled in the industry.
I am glad you are enjoying your Vacheron and Patek, Mohammad ,and I think we might want to agree to disagree on certain of the points above.
Patek: Finish and perception of quality
In this post, I wish to address the elephant in the room – finishing and the perceived poor value from Patek Philippe (PP). There have been repeated posts regarding PP, that I have let go, but statements such as “overhyped mass market products” was the st...
As long as the sun rises and sets
we will always have differences of opinion on this forum, be it the PP forum, Mont Blanc, JLC, Rolex, Seiko, etc. The differences of opinions are what keeps everyone's "spring wound" so to speak. Not saying I agree, or disagree with you, just saying we ha...
what u consider rude maybe legit to others
u just come across as a little too defensive. makes one wonder about what your motives truly are. then again, u may be the true PP God, in that case, whatever you say goes 😅
Hi! No motives, not even Patek moderator anymore, this was nearly 7 years ago
Things have certainly changed, I must say I was truly ahead of the curve in naming Rexhep as the new King. Independents are now way more prominent among high end collectors. Patek is still highly regarded and will remain so. As for the future and newer cr...
I am certain
that your last sentence is just one person's opinion, not a fact. I am not an expert in anything, so I enjoy a diverse perspective. if u can't tolerate that and only your expert opinion counts, then u are behaving like a bully. Also, I don't think there i...
Cheers to you my friend.
Love opinionated, yet substantiated and respectful posts like this. Just excellent! Cheers, Alex
Let's enjoy what we have for now, life is too short...
At the end of the day the manufacturers are here to make money. They are not in the business for the humanitarian reasons or good of the planet.
Yes I totally agree, hence I will be setting out a position statement on standards
But yes you are right, they are only watches at the end of the day Thank you for keeping our feet on the ground 👍🏻
Your statement is not a fair representation of the facts..
The Hans Wilsdorf Foundation, is registered as a charitable organization. The shares of Rolex are held in the foundation with detailed instructions on how to handle the finances. The first goal of the foundation is to ensure the sustainability of the grou...
Yes indeed, Patek is not to everyone taste, and that’s what makes collecting enjoyable
I don’t mind differences in opinion: its ill informed hate / rudeness that I will put an end too Btw the Breguet is one of my favourite watches and from an aesthetic point , Breguet make the most agonisingly beautiful watches
All I can say is I am happy with my Patek timepieces.
I’m happy to have the opportunity to own the pieces that I like. I am happy that I didn’t err in my decision to get Patek timepieces at a later stage of my life. I am happy that my Patek timepieces have kept their values through the years. I am happy that...
So eloquently put....thank you
“While I always believe that we can always agree to disagree. Let’s continue with fair and objective posting in this forum.”
Well said. I love this forum. I have learned so much.
You all have helped me acquire enough information to make my Patek 5270 purchase very comfortable. Thanks to all. Ps. Day, moon and date are off. Time is correct. I Put the watch in rotation this morning. Need to set it tonight after work. ...
Thank you very much.
I am liking this watch more everyday I wear it. It took some time for me to warm up to the 41mm size.
Imran I have been a long term fan of Lange and have owned many pieces since it’s 90s inception....
Same goes with JLC and I do own heavy pieces north of $75k mark and as you rightly said none stand close to What Patek offers . It’s a complete package . Hate to sound commercial but Patek gives you all what none can offer. Prestige , Quality, Rarity, Res...
"Prestige , Quality, Rarity, Resale , Appreciation and above all Satisfaction"
Wow, you really have summed up some of the well-written odes to Patek that have come out recently. While Patek won't be a focus for me, it's hard not to appreciate the passion it evokes among purists.
Still no match for Vacheron Constantin
Vacheron Constantin is the Founder of Haute Horology and it`s Royal Heritage is unmatched by pp , but the latter has higher resale value and higher prices paid in auctions due to : 1- better advertising 2-it`s own staff who set high bids . The second poin...
Thank you, Imran!
Excellent post, and thank you for setting some records straight while also advocating for a respectful and reasoned dialogue. By the way, Larry Pettinelli did an interview with Gear Patrol today where he says the hand finishing is the same in a Calatrava ...
Excellent posts! Glad you commented passionately on this issue
This is a fantastic article. We need more of such sharing! Also Walts article definitely should be revisited from time to time. Great stuff. I'm a huge fan of pp. To me they r in their own special realm, no comparison. That said, because they are pp, that...
In my opinion
Patek offers the complete watch in every category. Some may prefer the designs of other watches but when it comes to the important areas of reliability, accuracy, exclusitivity, movement design and finishing,after sales service service and resale value, I...
Er…
I have bought maybe eight PP at authorized dealers, none has kept decent time, and I’ve never felt being a member of a “family” except my own. In the case of PP, I’ve certainly never have felt a member of that family, rather on the contrary. But then, no ...
It boggles my mind that people still think a case and bracelet has much handwork involved...
Today, polishing, brushing and bevelling is all made by CNC machine with almost non human hands involved. And that Rexhep Rexhepi learned by Patek Philippe (worked for F.P. Journe) doesn‘t compliment Patek Philippe per se, it compliments their teaching in...
Stop bogling your brain, I spent 2 days in the manufacture watching it all being made
the case and bracelet are all finished by hand Maybe you should get your facts right before tapping
Take it easy
no need to get offended by your fellow members opinions . We have the right to express our views just like you . this forum is for sharing thoughts .
i don't think for a second that Miranda is offended.....
Rather, I think he is merely pointing out that Datograph was making factually inaccurate statements that were based on a lack of knowledge. Opinions are great and welcomed. But on Watchprosite, we try to make sure opinions are informed and based on facts....
I‘m not making factually incorrect statements!
First of all I know how a company operates and how it sells itself to customers (my company also guides customers through the facility and shows them how we produce everything ourselves...) and second, recently published an interview where a watchmaker f...
I am afraid you are mistaken
Like Miranda, I have also visited the Patek Philippe manufacturer (three occasions for me, probably more for Miranda) and I can tell you categorically that your statement is incorrect. I have seen with my own eyes.
I’m not going to take your believe....
...but visiting a facility means nothing today. The company I work for does the same thing as I already mentioned and we have all the machines and skills to do so, but we don’t do it. There is a reason why marketing works... people believe too much!
Give it a rest.
You saw a tv show and your company scams customers. And that is what you base your opinions on?
Don Baron...
I am eagerly awaiting your daughter's wedding day, so I can ask for a favor. I'm just afraid it will never happen.
And that’s why....
..... guys who only wish to slag off the brand and spout inaccurate BS won’t be participating in the forum.
No match for Vacheron Constantin
Vacheron Constantin was the King and pp never even dreamt of reaching Vacheron Constantin level till early seventies . Kings and Emperors always comissioned Vacheron watches . It is the Oldest continuious manufacturer since 1755 with unmatched Royal Herit...
If I may say so,
Kings and Emperors also commissioned Cartiers and Breguets but that does not mean that these watches were a match for Vacheron and Patek. If Vacherons was the King as you put it, I am quite astonished why this has not been recognised at watch auctions whe...
I own both . But ,
Vacheron Constantin is the Founder of Haute Horology and it`s Royal Heritage is unmatched by pp , but the latter has higher resale value and higher prices paid in auctions due to : 1- better advertising 2-it`s own staff who set high bids . The second poin...
Thank you for your reply Mohammad
I do not believe Patek do well at auctions and have a better resale value due to advertisements since many brands like Rolex, Omega and Longines do advertise a lot more extensively and are also major sponsors of various events and yet only Rolex do well a...
Excellent reply
Absolute comparisons like 'Founder of Haute Horlogy' make no sense - both companies are more than 150 years old which gives us sufficient time horizon to compare. Royal families bought both Patek, Vacheron, and many other brands. For some people appreciat...
Thank you CastorKrieg :-)
We are fortunate to be living in a period where we are spoiled for choice when it comes to the watches on offer, be it from a large brand or from a small independent. Yes this can sometimes give us a real dilemma when deciding what to buy but it is a plea...
What is the Patek forum a basis for?
Imran, Many thanks for this post. You set out to clarify and inform using knowledge rather than unfounded opinion. I think that when one is discussing Patek Philippe watches, there is a growing tendency for people who have never owned a Patek, never will ...
Great report.
Can I just check one thing, from my very limited knowledge of metals I actually thought German silver is harder than brass not softer (due to the higher Nickel content of German/Nickel silver) and hence the requirement to Rhodium coat brass? Many perceive...
It's not actually just the hardness per se...
A metal actually needs to be of a certain hardness and elasticity in order to be polished. For instance, only Grade 5 Titanium can be polished, and that's due to the hardness. However, gold can be polished (it can be done in 24K but more normally done in ...
Lange vs Patek finishing
At the very least, it is highly debatable if not frankly false that the Patek finish exceeds that of Lange. Maybe you could say they are close ..but the custom engrabed balance cock and the chatons. There really is nothing comparable from Patek at anythin...
Imran you don’t say that much but when you do we should all listen.
Beautifully articulated as usual. Your love for Patek and all Watches is infectious. If only we could make our livings out of this great obsession of ours. M.
Thank you for this post
So next time I encountered another PP "hater", I'll just showed them this post.
When you're ready to step-up from Pateks....
F.P.Journe. There are also many independents that truly do exceptional work. The mess of decoration on current Pateks is not uniform nor seems 'organized'. Also seems Patek is using larger bits to decorate movement, and using fewer / larger bridges to cut...
To quote directly from the great man Msr Journe
Philippe Dufour told me [Francois-Paul Journe] just the other day that my finishing quality is now good enough (laughter). I can do even better, but my production cost may increase by 3 times. I have no intention to make my collectors pay through their no...
Thanks Imran for the post and laying out your observations. Our common passion in watches, especially Patek given its high status price, is quite a...
personal topic. As we participate in this forum, we should stay as objective and courteous as possible although our thoughts are personal and subject to our biases due to backgrounds and cultures. As long as we communicate in a friendly manner, I am happy...
may I can ask
-"So visually the anglage is lost partly to the plating, but also do you want anglage for the sake of anglage? Its purpose is not be just aesthetically pleasing, but to prevent wear over time." do we talk about the anglage on the dridges and plates ?If so...
I would like some more challenging inside and outside angles
In a movement to show that PP aren't afraid to spend time on this finish versus the easier rounded bridges
Excellent and important post!
We can all disagree, but Internet can bring the worst in people and exaggerate certain things to an extreme - as Miranda and other people pointed out in this thread Patek provides unmatched 'complete package' from a product standpoint, heritage/history, v...
Great post
agree patek finishing, attention to detail, etc. Nothing is better. I thing the vintage pieces stand out because they feel like more labors of love than the modern pieces. They just feel, and look, special. In a time when almost all males wore timepieces....
I’ve been saying the same thing here for years.
I’m lucky to experience all “challengers” with personal ownership, VC, Lange, JLC, and as pointed out none provide the whole package. Maybe some have more contemporary designs, or more colorful appearance, but when it comes to traditional watchmaking, Pat...
Great question!
I personally buy a brand, not just a particular watch. I tend to be captured by the totally of the brand such as costumer care, service time and quality, product reliability over long wearing time, design, artisanal expression specially at this price poin...
would u qualify
what u just said as one person's opinion or facts? sounded to me like u have something against Richemont 😅
Absolutely! This is just my opinion based on owning both brands.
However I don’t have anything against Richemont other than all brands they own seem to sink like a submarine.🤷🏻♂️
really?!
I recalled reading somewhere that Cartier has been selling tons of watches. oh, my bad, the mass produced are not real watches to the horological snobs.
Your coffee was really strong this morning;)
If that’s your belief, more power to you. But it wasn’t Patek who bought back 40% of their stock and destroy it, let me help you it was Richemont and while I’m not Nostradamus, I’ll see it happening again, in the current and upcoming economic downturn. BT...
Thank you for your reasoning
I bought only Patek but kind of regret not to go with Lange. Most people i see and really respect wear Lange, not Patek. However, your argument is well founded, even if i still would mostly buy Lange at this point for many reasons..
Absolutely, why not?
I’m wasn’t saying that Lange is bad, under any circumstances, or avoid buying, it off course has its merits, what I’m saying is that when comparisons are made one should be objective regardless of where his/her heart pulls! Most “collectors” just copy/pas...
I agree with many or at least some of your points....
But i think case design / finish and dial finish is the best in the mass market. There are just many many references getting powered by the same select movements...
Off topic: but reading the above again I see an exchange between Horology75 and Spangles.
Two forum members and great contributors whom we have lost over the last few years. When things get heated, and I think we all agree being passionate about something is important in life, let’s remember these are just watches.
Glad to read this resurfaced article.
For sure, Patek won't be to everyone's taste, and there are other manufacturers or independents that produce amazing timepieces... But, for me, Patek deserves its well-earned reputation - their minute repeaters are among the very best; their dedication to...
Shall let the pictures do the talking
Beautifully carved interior angles on a modern 6301P. Picture credit SJX Watches. ...