Mr.Gatsby
2974
Yes and no.
At W&W 2025 there really are a couple of interesting pieces by the big houses. My absolute favorite is the Zenith G.F.J. But by and large they’ve f-ed it up so many times that the value proposition has been weak for me for years. In the last decade independents have emerged and made the value proposition stronger (note, I’m not referring to price). So will I return to the big brands ? Definitely not in a big way with this year as an exception. I think the big houses have had their time of day, peaked and have started to decline. The problem is that they create too many watches that nobody wants (they never listen to the collectors!). The way forward would be independents. And yes, they are not cheap, because labor cost is high and they largely have not achieved economies of scale, AND are not meant to operate like that anyway. But not all independents can be collected. So buy with discernment. That said, I am definitely going to pass on that Raul Pages watch.
Best
Gatsby
Is it time to return to the big brands and move away from independents?
The reason … Today, we saw the new Raul Pages, a beautiful timepiece, without a doubt, and an exceptional watchmaker. But... A simple two-hand watch in a steel case, admittedly with excellent finishing, for €115,000 including taxes. Many years ago, some i...
It's an interesting question.
I think the answer depends on what you're seeking in a watch. There’s no doubt that independents, like Raul Pages, offer exceptional craftsmanship and unique designs that appeal to a more niche audience. The personal involvement and rarity can be very att...
I am not sure exceptional craftsmanship and unique designs can affect price so much in a simple 3 hand,
time only watch, Sounds silly but I guess it can, but there come a point where it can't and the price gets to be ridiculous and you are not getting anymore value for what you are spending.
Totally agree with you regarding value.
there's price...and there's value ,and the gap seems to be enlarging out of proportion,it seems to me
I think there are many facets of current watch collecting that make little financial sense
Tiffany stamped nautilus, Rexhep, Dufour, Bergeron , and now this to name a few . But the markets determines price not value. That is determined by individual purchasers. i could have bought a rexhep on the secondary market. Price was determined by recent...
It does seem silly.
That’s nice but I don’t see anything to distinguish it from a dozen other indies who would charge half that. But the whole industry has lost its mind regarding pricing. Desirable, “reasonably “ priced pieces can’t be got until they hit the secondary marke...
Yes it's been pretty ridiculous the last 5 years..
But as the saying goes what goes up must come down. There will be a period of reckoning I reckon.
The Emperor’s new clothes?
not this piece specifically, more a comment on the industry generally.
I agree, the independents have gotten crazy priced.
At the end of the day, it depends on what you value. Do you really want to own something special? And to some who bought a Nautilus for $100K, they may see a lot of value. I recently had a person ask me... Why is a Nautilus 5711 still worth $100K? And why...
I don't get it either...
...I had the chance to get some nice watches at (now) good prices. But I had a hard time spending money on myself. Now that I might be able to swing one of these, the prices have gotten ridiculous. Oh, well...
To be fair, anyone can ask anything they legally can for something they are selling.
For example: i sold my soul for rock and roll. 😎
Absolutely!
And if we don't like the price, then we don't have to pay it. The fact of the matter is that these small independent brands can get those super high numbers. And while we aren't happy that we can't afford these brands anymore, we should be happy for the a...
To quote the Great George Straight!
I've got some ocean front property in Arizona From my front porch, you can see the sea I've got some ocean front property in Arizona If you'll buy that, I'll throw the Golden Gate in free
Independents have realized that there is money to be made
and increased their prices significantly. If collectors keep buying independents will be proven right. If collectors stop buying, prices will have to become more reasonable again. Two years ago Yosuke Sekiguchi’s Primevère retailed for €60k, now the exact...
I personally
will buy an A Lange over these any day 😍 and I have purchased a H Moser in the past
This is what in Italy we call "uno schiaffo alla povertà"...
...which translates to "a slap to poverty". The finishing is amazing of course, the watch is great, but over 100k great? I don't believe so. Add the fact that long term servicing is going to be an issue and this turns into a purchase that very few people ...
Just no. The watch market and industry
is suffering right now yet the prices continue to rise. At some point the music will stop and there will be a reckoning. This seems an absurd price for a steel time only watch, regardless of the finishing. Compare this to the new Parmigiani Tonda and ther...
I got an allocation
of this beautifully hand-finished RP2. I could have bought another Patek but I already have some and the artisanal independents are giving me something more to love them. I can't control myself when I see those interior angles in the wheels and bridges. T...
From several reviews, impressions has been positive thus far..
Seems many are reserving comments after W&W when they have the chance to handle the piece. Looking at the overall package, if anyone is looking for a 2/3 hander, there are really many options. At the very least, not too unreasonable to expect a precio...
I really appreciate Raul Pages approach and work
It's impossible for me not to appreciate his watches, and wish him well in continuing to make them. He'll have to do so without my money, unfortunately, but hey... most things in the world seem to be getting along without my money contributing to them!
There are some good buys out there from the Independents
Personally, in this instance I see Mr. Pages trying to find equilibrium. The price does seem high but what is the point of pricing the watch so well that he finds himself with a 5-10 year waitlist? That doesn't sound ideal either.
I see a lot of similarities between this and a Philippe Dufour
Obviously Mr. Dufour is a living legend but the market for these sort of pieces has long been set.
Yeah.
Wasn't this a subject of conversation in a Journe thread several weeks ago? Just what are you getting for that money?
Agreed.
Yes and I agree with FPJ to an extent. At these prices why is there not some innovation? With the FPJ and PP etc. at least you are getting innovation, complications, storied history stability and value. How is this orders of magnitude better and more valu...
All about demand unfortunately
Independents have become more popular. If they can sell it for such a high price why wouldnt they?
Firstly a slight correction
It is a three handed watch, not a two handed watch. Secondly, although that price may seem steep for a three handed watch, there is little doubt that even at the offered price, the watch will be snapped up probably before Watches and Wonders ends. Thirdly...
I would add to your list Strehler, usually forgotten
For me the price could be 100k or more but the though I admire the nice execution, I'm still wondering if there's any outsourced part, what is hand finished and in which way is hand finished. Some of Those that you mentioned have become a new asset, with ...
I don't get this as well...
I am more into Perp Calendars nowadays and I am attracted to a couple of QP offerings from the independents, however they all cost several times (2X, 3X, even 4X) compared to the QP offerings from the best big brands. Someone said to me recently, independ...
The pricing is high
Pick an independent watch you absolutely love. For me, Theo Auffret's Tourbillon a Paris. If you could afford it, would you pass up the opportunity to own it if you had to pay 30% more than the introductory retail price? How about 50% more? If there are l...
It’s a cool watch but…
I would find it hard to pick over a used Logical1 from RG or Signature1 from GF. Many other great options in the price range too.
I fully agree with you on this.
I am a early independent watch collector and for me the passion and love for these brands come from the personal experience and connection with the watchmakers themselves. For me thats that’s what I want and half the value of owning such a watch but since...
I wonder why he opted for a simple Swiss lever escapement here
and not the unique detent escapememt he used in his recent regulateur? Has that movement proven not reliable enough?
I'm with you
That is absurd. A new way to make a fast fortune... But there are still great indies, with great offerings.
Very interesting comment from Bill re price vs. value
I remember many many years ago a friend of a friend sold one of her paintings for six figures. I asked the friend was it really worth it. He said - yes, at this time someone paid it, so it was worth it to that person. Who knows about tomorrow? I have ofte...
I find it quite greedy
for a steel three hander with no special escapement or anything that differentiates it from the hundred other indies makes no sense.... what makes it worse is that it is more than his RP1!!!
Offering another perspective
These artisanal watches are made in very limited quantities (from 7 to 30 pcs annually per manufacturer) and they appeal to people who value hand-finishing and/or handmadeness. Each dress watch has approximately 2 ounces of gold and given the retail price...
Such a valid question!
I am big fan of independent watchmaking and have always felt it deserves to be encouraged therefore I own quite few pieces from Urwerk, Laurent Ferrier, Lecomte and Herve Schluchter, hopefully soon. Still, this extremely beautiful RP comes, more or less, ...
Thanks for posting Bruno…
Normally I lean towards indies and recent years the point you put forward makes me introspect the rational of my choices… Yes there is better finish, limited in quantity & uniqueness, Yes it does bring good connect to the watchmaker but when you think at ...
Have to disagree with a majority of posts here
Raul Pages is finding the equilibrium between the number of these watches he can produce (very limited) and the price they can command (we’re finding that out). Whether they are “worth” that price is a purely personal decision, but for those that disagree...
I have to agree
I do not that much value in this watch. It would hard for to me feel good about this watch. at that price Sorry, I am sure a lot of time and effort went into it.
Yes and no.
At W&W 2025 there really are a couple of interesting pieces by the big houses. My absolute favorite is the Zenith G.F.J. But by and large they’ve f-ed it up so many times that the value proposition has been weak for me for years. In the last decade indepe...
I suppose the arithmetics are the following
I am not talking about Pages, but about smth hypothetical. Let’s say there is a watchmaker that values his personal time 50000$ a month. After all the RnD he has a capacity of producing 12 watches a year or 1 watch a month. That means his watch will cost:...
Unfortunately, fame can make people greedy
I don't think one can make a blanket statement about all independent watchmakers, but this one in particular has decided to leverage his fame for more money. GPHG and some collaborations where his name is attached to a watch just for a simple movement des...
When it comes to watch collecting
no one is being forced to buy a watch and we all tend to focus on watches in our price budgets. Irrespective of a price of a watch, there will always be a market for it due to its movement finishing or complication. The Raul Pages may seem expensive but i...
Well well well... The answer is not so evident. I see your point, but...
Is it more logical to spend the same amount of money for a vintage Blancpain such as a Tornek Rayville? A Rolex 6542? A Tudor 7924 military? And so on... I would say yes, in those cases. You will tell me that the price is the consequence of the History of...
Absolutely Nico! To each his own
because I personally would never pay a premium price for a watch due to its history. In fact, when I buy a watch, I don't usually just buy the watch but the entire purchase experience hence my being partial to the independent brands.