Joepny
1970
we're coming at it from different angles
I think what I read you saying is Hodinkee has done a public good by promoting watches for everyone to consider and even better they have promoted some new versions of watches that they sold themselves and many people like and cannot get anywhere else. I am not arguing for an end to the Hodinkee special watches. I've said that I wish Hodinkee success to contribute to the economy.
I'm saying Hodinkee should directly tell the reader when they promote the merits of a watch manufacturer from whom they get a cut of profits. In the US, the ethical standards of journalism (I am paraphasing and this is my opinion because I am not a Journalism professor) have two big hallmarks: independence and transparency.
What I saw with Hodinkee's VC watch release was the appearance that their past editorial coverage of VC watches was also guided by the known benefit of future direct income to sell a watch made by VC. It does not appear now in hindsight that Hodinkee was fully independent and transparent when they wrote those VC-related articles over the past year. It may not be a significant point to some PuristS. It is to me.
Pay to play?
So this post is a serious discussion about something that absolutely infuriates me and I'm hoping it hews to the PuristS code of conduct and won't be removed. Hodinkee put up for sale exclusively through their website a tweaked model of the VC Les Histori...
Agree with you it takes away any form of credibility of H as a source of independent horological journalism.
In due time it will be more apparent to a wider group of readers less versed in horology. I do think however they have an interesting role in sensing what users want more of and act as a bridge to the manufacturers who seem at times poor at sensing what c...
But even H would agree
I don\'t think they themselves would call them selves and independent source of journalism. They admit they are a business and they took a lot of money from investors to build the business. Again, why are we holding them to a standard to be independent wh...
Because they are arguably the biggest watch blog
in terms of English language content, I am guessing, or in the top 2 or 3. And they provide their content free and push their content out aggressively. In turn they benefit from the pageviews that readers like you and I give them. Pageviews help them set ...
This was eloquent and clear
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I went from not really caring to agreeing with you.
Don't get me wrong
all the power to Hodinkee to flourish in their business. they\'re keeping people employed and hopefully paying taxes and contributing to the economy.
As a Zenith and Nomos Hodinkee owner...
I don't really understand what the big deal is about. I don't think for a second that hodinkee is biased in a VC, Zenith or Nomos article or -- at least -- no more than any other site, blog etc. that accept advertisers. There is a clear division between e...
fair response Christian
I don\'t assume something nefarious from Hodinkee. Their VC watch is attractive and cheers to the 36 future owners. But in my eyes they did not clearly show the division of editorial vs. commercial business with this VC special edition watch rollout. They...
I understand but..
in my eyes it is like this: first hodinkee identifies a particular watch they like or love and then there is a collaboration. So I don't think for a second that Jack or other writes were not honest in saying what they said about this model, regardless of ...
I agree with many of your points
good thread. My summary is a watch journalist (including webzines) cannot be a watch trader/broker/dealer at the same time. There is a conflict of interest or at least a perceived one that makes it hard for readers to believe content from the watch journa...
thanks for the response Robin
I wish success for Hodinkee. I just believe they can be more forthcoming in positioning their content. Information is power and with the Swiss watch industry, it seems that every player wants to hold their cards tight and it saddens me that one of the big...
It is an interesting discussion and involved not only Horological media organisations but all media in general.
Ablogtowatch had done a few editorials on this before as well. This blurring of editorial and financial will continue to exist unless web consumers are prepared to pay for content. This would be the only way to ensure media organisations stay unbiased and...
I agree to some extent
but it\'s also because we consumers are too happy to suck it all up without making a fuss. There\'s no consumer affairs ombudsman for the watch industry. We should demand a little bit more.
but why? you don't buy a watch because Jack or anyone says is great no ? you buy..
what you like. Any blog, forum etc. will always offer a biased, individual opinion of what THEY think about that watch. Most of people will use the blog (or this forum) for ideas to be explored with your own mind (and wrist) nothing more, nothing less.
I agree that something like a watch ombudsman would be a good idea. Or something like a watch ADAC
So that we can see true data. Failure rate, tested accuracy, service performance, etc.
ABTW is pretty serious about avoiding advertorial; Hodinkee is an online shop with a blog.
I won't slate Ben for running a business, but everyone who reads that site needs to understand it's a dealer first, an advertising platform second, and journalism a distant third. The total evolution of the site from a blog to an online shop took place gr...
I like ablogtowatch too but..
in honesty some of the sponsored content of low-end watches is much more disturbing than what hodinkee does but of course this is relative. My bottom line is that any watch blog/forum is a mere guidance. I am sure that every sensible buyer will use his ow...
The ABTW site's focus is different.
It's not necessarily a luxury portal. The coverage of sub-$1,000 (and even sub-$200) timepieces is part of Ariel's regular content stream, but it seems easy enough to avoid that content. Even beyond these low-end watches, there tends to be more variety on...
I am a big fan of both sites
But my counter to you is that ABTW has certainly moved away from honest criticism to a safer, more relationship sensitive approach to content. Conversely, Jack F is one of the most respected editors in the business and he is hardly on auto-pilot for a sho...
I too respect Jack unconditionally, and I would never accuse him of personally fielding advertorial.
Ariel certainly has to pick his spots to launch a strong critique of a new product, but that's the watch world of the moment. Best, Tim
the ones I remember are
the three-on-three article from this past Monday or Tuesday. The 2016 VC Overseas 3-hander was compared to the current AP RO 3-hander and the 2016 Piaget Polo 3-hander. Jack Forster wrote the section on the VC Overseas. And Jack\'s perspective was plainly...
It's hard to pin this on bias
First, I don't see Jack being involved in the creation of the LE watch and there is definitely some commercial/editorial segregation in Hodinkee, although it's perhaps not strict. Second, the merits of those two watches stand on their own. I would be more...
it's the appearance of bias
and in my mind when there can be an appearance of bias, due care should be taken to make it known and let your reader get to his/her own informed conclusion. there are so many simple things Hodinkee can do to maintain integrity if they put themselves in t...
I don't think there is a problem with HODINKEE....
As long as you know what you\'re reading. Ben Clymer and other members of the team have said on multiple occasions that they only write about what they like. The whole site is biased from the start, and that is the point! HODINKEE represent their own tast...
good point Harry
I\'m demanding more from Hodinkee because their influence is growing stronger every year. If they continue to provide free content on the web, they just need to disclose it when the content is structured like a watch review or an impartial analysis. A 1 s...
nobody will pay for content so a paywall is a bad idea...
they had a one off partnership with MB&F, Zenith, Nomos, Vacheron so a disclaimer saying they share business with these manufacturers will be incorrect. Hey guys is free content and if someone is not interest in a collaboration/doesn't trust their site an...
so true, is about what they like but some people seems to think (in their comments section I mean) ...
that whatever they say have to be bespoke to the reader. NO! They present and comment with their own judgement and opinion based on emotions but also a lot of horological facts... To me is a bit like a club too so owning a co-branded watch is nice.
Hodikee is a for profit business
So I don't personally see anything wrong. It's not like they can survive on a subscription based model. Same thing magazines and newspapers having been doing since way before the interweb was around.
You are spot on...
They are a business and in the business of making money via advertorials... its nothing new, the printing press has been selling good reviews for years. How many brands would continue to advertise with newspapers, magazines or sites like Hodinkee, if they...
i remember learning about subliminal adverts in grade schools
It sounded scary that big businesses would take advantage of kids watching TV and could control your mind that way. then I grew up and realized it wasn\'t so scary but definitely a slimey practice. I read that the UK bans it, not sure if US does too.
Although...
They have said multiple times that they want to be the go to source for information on watches. And I don\'t mean just reviews, I mean they want to be a factual horological reference.
Who is watching the watch industry?
I don't think Hodinkee pulls punches about what offerings they like and which ones they don't regardless of the brand. If they do a collaboration piece it's because they favor the reference, not the brand. Although I'm sure we'll see them continue to roll...
I do concur
I have been reading them since years. All this has been pretty clear to me when I see a guy who could not afford a basic three hand Lange, traveling now with a Dufour in his arm. I am happy for him since he loves watches indeed imo, but it does make me re...
:-))) Obviously people feel he does them a service.
And they compensate him for that. Have a great one my friend, Alex
Specific to TAG Heuer
Confining myself to possible reason for TAG Heuer or Heuer prices strengthening at auctions recently. TAG Heuer recently set out a new policy to be the guardians of their own patrimony. This means they will attempt to restore rather than replace vintage p...
Might well be, on the long run, and after years of such efforts
But the recent prices of +200K, and considering the jump is of 20-30 times within weeks or at best months, does not reasonate with the business person in me, and neither with the irrational watch collector in me. It simply does not work like that. For a b...
standing ovation
hat off Respect One of the best answers so far...i'm still reading it all
I believe Hodinkee is advancing their business model like no other...
From being a watch blog to media partner with strong commercial ties to the manufacturer to watch (& accessories) store towards a trend gauge and trend setter. All of the recent special editions, the Zenith, the Nomos, the VC, were outstandingly desirable...
Let's not forget - I see this very, very critical for the watch collector's scene as a whole because this could mean...
that free flowing reporting with now (or at least very little) commercial interest such as this site we increasingly be sidelined and be given, as a consequence, less reseources from the brands and less access and information. One absolutely outstanding a...
It will be interesting to see where this goes...
They obviously have a great momentum and have the need too carry it on. I read Hodinkee in the same light as reading Revolution, GMT, Luxury in the Financial Times, etc, etc. They are adverts for brands who pay to have articles written, either directly or...
thanks for your measured response Magnus
In a nutshell, I say demand more from Hodinkee before they become an even bigger goliath in the industry. They are a polished operation and their content side of the house acts like journalism, a very slickly well-produced one at that. So if it quacks lik...
I still don't understand...
Where is the bias? because they featured this watch in another article or the Zenith before the LE ? It makes a lot of sense to educate the potential buyer about a watch. I don't really see any evidence of bias or anything to suggest that their journalism...
we're coming at it from different angles
I think what I read you saying is Hodinkee has done a public good by promoting watches for everyone to consider and even better they have promoted some new versions of watches that they sold themselves and many people like and cannot get anywhere else. I ...
I agree and they already do that:
"should directly tell the reader when they promote the merits of a watch manufacturer from whom they get a cut of profits. " They do tell to each reader when the watch featured in an article is a special edition Hodinkee or not. When is not, there is no b...
I see what you're saying
I think this is important, you have made a good point here. However, perhaps HODINKEE are helping us in a way. They steered me on to Grand Seiko, that was a good idea! I think they were genuinely right to do so, the believe in the brand and rightly so. I ...
Why do you think that? Could you elaborate a bit?
Most people have quite a few detailed opinions about the issue, regardless on how they stand to the issue. I also think it is not a rant, judging by tone as well as on the succinctly presented arguments (which are per se debatable). Kind regards, Magnus
This is how the busines
is invariably done throughout. Manufacturers advertise in the watch magazines and receive favorable press. The poster here knows this site sells VC watches and apparently all kinds of watches. To assume Hodinkee is unethical or dishonest and deliberately ...
You're arguing for the status quo
I\'m arguing that as consumers/readers we should demand more openness because we are implicitly agreeing to current industry practice by not challenging it and it will perpetuate. Who wins in the long run? I don\'t know for sure but I have a hunch it will...
Does anybody represent
they are independent and ethical watch journalists? To do so they would have to have no connection with or receive anything of value from the watch companies. I believe Consumer Reports attempts to do this in their opinions. Watch reviewers would have to ...
Nor forums are completely free
Because we, as forumers, talk (review also, why not?) of those watches which belong to us. Hard to negatively depict what we bought with our money, but we might be quite objective, especially when there's no willing to earn with our own watches. The marke...
If i'm not wrong, nobody focused on the main problem
I was waiting for someone to open this thread, so here it is. We have only 2 players on the game. Someone has been (voluntary) forgotten, the ADs and the retailers. Are they happy of any of those LE? Doing so, it's clear the future willing to reduce AD an...
I read this piece on instagram with great, great pleasure!
well, but one could see it also lke this: 36 pieces of a very, very attractive piece, in steel, thus doubly desireable, will be a sure and cerain investment. If you have the money to spare you might, just of its investment value, be interested to instanty...
That's the point
I was member (and even MOD) of the most important italian watch forum, but i've always been a black sheep (not moderate) ;-) They made and still make LE for forumers (Zenith made it with O&P before Hodinkee) , with a free list based on the first come firs...
nothing was pre sold as far as I know but clearly the purchased was not done online. It was a reservation
and whomever got the watch got it from the VC boutique that had it ready in stock for the release (or could get it pretty quickly).
We have already one owner here
let's see if he can tell us more. Anyway,i'm highly doubtful that there were no watches already sold. i'd bet some resellers were able to get one, but it's my suspicious nature speaking, i've learnt to trust few (almost nobody) and not take anything for g...
you can be as suspicious as you want but ..
you shouldn't spread rumours or affirmations unless you can back it with some facts.
I still don't get it ...
"Hodinkee said it took one year to have this LE accomplished; once again, let me a bit smartass for a while, there's no way i could believe this statement, it's pure marketing." right so you honestly believe that a busy manufacturer like VC would go and c...
Your assumptions are completely wrong
First, I hate nobody. I like or I dislike watches like everyone else, but I've never hated anybody (neither my former girlfriends). You really take this stuff too seriously, if you believe not only all the marketing fairy tales the maisons regularly sprea...
very glad to hear that you don't hate this :-)
sorry if I misjudged your comments. If I were Hodinkee I would have also not replied to a parody Instagram account.... I don't want to convince you or anybody either but as a buyer of the Zenith and Nomos I think the dealings was more than fair and I am v...
Let me ask you something
Do you think that your judgment's ability has not been biased, even a bit, by the purchase of those 2 hodinkee's LE ? (i'll call it hdnk to make it short) I think you are an intelligent person, according to your posts, so i understand that from your persp...
possibly I am biased because I own the watches..
but then I am biased to every watch brand I have It is not hard to believe for me that their opinions will remain their opinions...I didn't buy the watches to please them but because I liked them. I don't really think anyone can be truly unbiased. Watches...
Agree 100%
I was not wrong assuming you were intellegent and passionate like everyone here. ;-) I've already expressed above, replying to watch-er, that we (forumers) are unconsciously biased (few hidden sellers are aware, actually) However, your avatar is indeed th...
thank you :) now that you mention it ..something a bit different was made in this collaboration..
which surprised me in a way. You could reserve the watch but the sale/view of the item happened in a local Bulgari boutique. So in a way it was more of a boutique edition ...or at least it was through a more traditional channel. Interesting concept as I a...
I just want to say thank you for the enlightened discussion
I hope the thread had a good run and everyone felt it was above board. By all means it should continue if more needs to be said. I did not want it to descend to name-calling and trashing reputations. The VC watch itself is great and bravo to the future ow...
Thank you Joe, you brought it a very nice way
and I appreciated also a lot your argumentation, your answers as well as participants ones and the respect and way of conduct everyone had. It was easy to have some borderline comments and people remained polite and critic. That was very interesting readi...
My first post
I was one of the people that applied after 3 min from the moment when was available. I got the registration mesage that I'm going to be contacted but no phone from H or VC. I see here also that some people got it so for me its clear that they sold it mont...
Disclosure and business success are not mutually exclusive
Very interesting thread, a perfect Sunday morning read! There have been a number of well-articulated arguments that A) with Hodinkee's influence comes the responsibility of informing its readers of potential bias and B) They are a private, successful busi...
absolutely agree with your Brandon
and the disclosure was always there. On each article where hodinkee has some stake (collaborations) it was very clear. All the tortuous thinking that VC was featured in another article because of this well..is just an allegation and not substantiated by a...
I was actually trying to argue for a little more explicit disclosure
I was trying to argue that (increased) disclosure can enhance the customer relationship in support of the overarching business objectives. Cheers, Brandon
I agree with your original point 100%, Joe.
Hodinkee, in my mind, has been playing this game for quite some time. They initially claimed total independence from the manufacturers. Now they collaborate with them. And it really started a few years back when people like Ben Clymer and Eric Wind starte...
Sums up well
I think it is naive to get frustrated or to be disappointed by what Hodinkee is after. They have a "shop" for quite some time now, and their coverage phase shifted long before that. What remains to look for, is the point, spirit or some sort of originalit...
thanks Padj
the auction season coverage is a whole other can of worms. I remember you wrote about it briefly last year in a thread. We have agreement. I think this horse has been beaten enough this weekend. Cheers! Hope you survived the storms. My back aches from the...
It wasn't too bad here, as it turned out.
And while in NYC this weekend I met Ryan Schmidt of all people.
Spot on my friend
That\'s the thing. I think people like the blog but understand what BC has become and have a hard time separating the two. Jack is amazing but his writing deserves a better journalistic platform since H is certainly not a journalist site
Collector's summit
I remember the flak they get when they hosted the for-pay Collector's Summit. I'd have to believe they have started building a clientele list, so to speak. One of the IG accounts I follow have been posting the watch within a couple days since the announce...
Yes and yes!
I would not doubt that they have a "list of friends" that just might get the word a little early. And Hodinkee wouldn't even allow comments on the posts advertising the Summit to which you refer. That stood out in my mind at the time.
I think I might know the IG guy you speak of
I met him once over a potential private sale but it did not go further. Or might be a different guy. I do not follow any watch enthusiast or blogs or brands on IG. I think it\'s a little too much (and so does my wife who yells at me often for reading Puri...
There are actually legal rules addressing this sort of thing
In the US, those who endorse products are generally required to disclose whatever financial consideration they receive from the manufacturer for doing so. I have no idea whether that applies here or not; just throwing it out there. #intro
Most interesting. I wasn't aware there were legal guidelines . . .
. . . regarding disclosure. When Glashütte Original surprised the daylights out of yours truly with a Senator Sixties as an indefinite term loan*, I'm pretty sure the origins of the watch were established in the first paragraph of my initial review. (Poss...
Hello Art!!
I\'m pretty sure you\'re on the right side of the law on this one, but let me know if the g-men come knocking! Hope all is well with you.
My humble and personal opinion is that the watch industry as a whole is 90% full of liars.
But, the same goes for anything where money is involved, be it bikes, cars, horse riding... Anytime there is a substantial amount of money in question, people start doing pretty much anything to get it. Sorry if i'm being too abrupt, but it is my opinion ...
For me the blame lies with...
VC. I think it is unproper for them to release such an important watch in such a manner. I wonder what VC faithful partners think of this practice not to mention VC faithful cli3nts that probably did not get a chance to make an offer for this watch. HDK a...
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