patrick_y
[PuristSPro Moderator]
28348
Stubbornly Overrated... But very good once you know how to drive it...
Let me start off with the following. I really like Porsches, but I feel the vast majority of people who buy them have NO IDEA what they're buying. Let me explain... Porsches and BMWs are two luxury/premium German car marques. Porsche is considered luxury. BMW is considered Premium. Porsche produces around 300,000 cars a year currently, BMW around 2 million. Both of these car companies are known to use "simple but effective" designs and cost cutting designs. For instance... BMWs up until recently never had double wishbone suspension designs. Double wishbones are larger and due to their size, they generally have to be made in aluminum or else they'd be too heavy and have too much inertia. Honda used to market themselves as a car company with double wishbone suspensions in entry-level vehicles - unusual for cars of the entry-level class - but their double wishbones were made of steel. Double wishbones allow better camber adjustment and in every road situation (on camber corners and off camber corners) allow more of the tire's contact patch to stay in contact with the road therefore increasing grip. Porsche's 911 also never had double wishbone designs - at least not until recently - and that recent model is only limited to the 992 GT3 and GT3RS; Porsche's 911 models have historically favored a MacPherson Strut suspension which is much more conventional, cheaper, easier to assemble on an assembly line, easier to package, takes up far less room, and allows for bigger trunks and engine bays. Compare these two brands with their direct competitors Porsche to Aston-Martin/Lamborghini/Ferrari (which is admittedly another level more expensive) and BMW to Mercedes (very similar pricing and very direct competitors); the competitors used far more expensive ingredients.
Now... Onto the driving. The vast majority of Porsche 911 drivers are buying the name and reputation of the car brand and they think they're wonderful drivers. Kind of like my friend who owns 10+ Patek Philippes and thinks he's an expert on Patek Philippe but doesn't know what the difference is between a hairspring and a mainspring. But in reality if the Porsche drivers don't have extensive experience in driving mid-engine cars (which are almost always exotic and very expensive), they have the common belief that the 911 is a superior automobile. The 911 is an amazing automobile - but when driven aggressively, they were absolutely terrible to drive and dangerous until the 2012 model year which brought with it the 991 generation. For most people, they had started driving Front-engined and Front-wheel-drive cars or Front-engined and Rear-wheel-drive cars or sometimes Front-engined All-wheel-drive cars as these are the most popular car types. Almost all people start with these cars and get accustomed to the dynamics of these cars. For whatever reason they eventually buy into a 911, usually when they're a little older after many years of driving Front-engined cars. Front engined cars behave very differently than Rear-engined cars. Front engined cars behave somewhat closer to mid-rear-engined cars (like a Lamborghini) than a rear-engined car (like a Porsche). Rear engined cars are kind of in a class all their own, and the engine is a very heavy component of the car and it's sitting behind the rear axle on a Porsche 911. A front engine car the engine is at least mostly on the front axle and not ahead (unless you're an Audi, Audi has a portion of the engine ahead of the axle). This weight being in the rearmost of the car makes the car act as a pendulum sometime.
For instance, in a corner on a race track, all people regardless of car type are taught to decelerate, turn in, clip the apex, and then start accelerating immediately after you clear the Apex and start straightening the steering wheel. And this will work in all cars, you will clear the corner safely in Front, Mid, or Rear engined cars with this technique. And for just about any front-engined and mid-engined car, you would achieve the best lap time using this basic formula. BUT! To achieve the best lap time for a Rear-engined cars have a very counter-intuitive formula: decelerate, turn-into the corner, just before you clip the apex of the turn you actually start accelerating, you pass the apex and continue accelerating as you straighten your steering wheel. To accelerate so early while you're still increasing your turning is extremely counterintuitive.
Why is that counterintuitive? Well, I think we can agree: the harder you accelerate, the less you should be steering. Thus, the maximum acceleration and maximum braking should be done when the car is not steering. You don't expect to make a sharp turn at 200 kph, because the car will simply skid and not turn and you'd have no control in the skid. Here's a chart that shows how much you can turn relative to your acceleration:
Basically you see a circle. And the circle says, the more you turn, the lower your acceleration or braking (or speed) has to be. Cars with more grip will have a bigger circle. Cars with less grip will have a smaller circle. In front-engined and mid-engined cars, this circle stays more or less consistent. But in a rear-engined car, this circle changes shape dynamically. Which is odd, because in certain situations, while you're turning, you can actually turn harder and yet accelerate harder - which is counterintuitive as it would mean that this shape is no longer a circle. Most 911 owners don't drive their cars aggressively. And if they do, they do it in a straight line. And even if they go on twists and turns, they believe they're going much faster than they ever would've gone... But it's also not objective. Someone coming out of a 10+ year old Toyota Prius is going to be vastly impressed with any new car - since the Prius is a very modest vehicle and car technology (especially suspension technology and traction control technology) has improved quite a bit in more mechanical and less marketable ways.
But, prior to 2012, any Porsche with the 997 generation or prior to that, the Porsche car was very difficult to drive. The dynamic limits of grip changed so drastically that a driver had to be very sensitive of what was going on in order to get the most out of the car. Porsche also wanted to dynamically balance their imbalanced car - the 911s are much heavier in the rear; so heavy that they put much wider rear tires. Now this isn't unusual, BMW and Mercedes do this as well - but they do it for RWD traction, Porsche does it for weight balance. Porsche also adjusted the camber of their suspensions to the most aggressive in the industry. Sometimes several degrees of camber! This meant that the inside tire would wear out much faster than the outside and it also meant when you were driving straight, only the inner 80% of the tire was touching the road, the outside 20% was barely touching the road. This worked well on roads with on-camber corners, as the whole tire surface is touching the road in the turn. but off camber corners were downright dangerous if you were driving aggressively you had only a small portion of the outer tire touching the road which meant in this case your grip was much smaller than the driver's assumption. And when you did lose traction on a Porsche in a mid turn, often the car would react violently. Spinning! Tail first spinning. The car's tail would wag the dog. Fortunately, for the 991 generation of the 911 which started in 2012, Porsche made dramatic changes to the car... The car was now super easy to drive. The computer traction control took care of everything. I did crazy things on the racetrack trying to provoke the car and every time the traction control corrected my mistake and prevented a spin. Gee, I wished I had that in the 996 and 997, would've saved me a lot of embarrassment!
And Autobahn driving (which I admittedly have relatively little experience in) felt a little less stable at high speed in a Porsche 911 to me compared to a BMW 5 series station wagon in my limited experience. The front of the 911 gets floaty after a certain speed. I suppose this makes sense since there's not enough weight nor downforce in the front?
If you're driving a 911 that's more recent (2012 or later) you don't need to worry about all those things I mentioned. Those really only apply to the 997-generations and later. Today, the 911 is so easy to drive, and the car is SO CAPABLE, and the car's computer is so smart that it can overcome most of the strange behavior of rear-engined cars. In fact, newbie drivers can actually come within a few seconds of the lap times of experienced professionals on short-length laps. Credit goes to the electronic stability control and credit goes to the suspension articulation.
So, there are two types of Porsche owners, the 90% who never take the car to the limits and are very happy with their machine which has great steering, reasonable comfort, and a fairly emotional driving experience. And there are the 10% who do drive aggressively; out of this 10% some will crash their cars - mostly not knowing what they did wrong - because they don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of the rear-engine set-up.
I tell all my friends considering Porsche 911 ownership to understand the physics - even if they're not aggressive drivers - because I want them to have a great ownership experience. And then I admit that the new 991 is so good that the car's computer gets you out of just about any sticky situation one can throw at it that everything I say almost doesn't apply if they're getting a recent model. Most of them shush me - they're never going to drive the car in an aggressive manner - they're just buying it for the looks, the image, etc. Some of them realize that there may be something they don't understand and they read up on it. A few of them have gone to Porsche-911-specific driver education. And some have given up 911 ownership and gotten a Cayman or Boxster or an entirely different car instead. Considering you're looking at a wide range of years, I thought I'd mention my hesitation with 911s older than 2012.
Bottom line, Porsches are great cars. Porsches and Lamborghinis are the only "reliable" sports cars (I define sports cars in a manner that excludes two door grand tourers and that they have to have a dry sump lubrication, a Ferrari Roma is not a sports car) according to the professional employees at a Las Vegas Drive an Exotic Car on a Race Track experience center. And I'd like a Porsche 911 GT3 if I could get my hands on one. With the juvenile rear wing or without, that is an amazing car and I bet I'd like it very very much. And it'd be so much more comfortable and easier to drive than the 996/997s I've driven in the past.
More posts:
A post on Porsche 911s.
I guess I am far from being the only one to love and have a huge admiration for the Porsche 911, which will celebrate the 60th anniversary of its unveiling, next year. 60 years, already!!! I never owned a Porsche, I considered the idea many times, and I a...
993 all the time
I had two of them, Targa and Turbo. Best air cooled technology, best proportions
I cannot say
First bought the Targa for the roof but it was totalled in an accident. Then the turbo for the power. Both lovely.
Great post.
Don't forget to talk about the 912. That help keep Porsche alive when they switched from the 356 to the 911. The 911 was too expensive and sales were not good. So Porsche came up with the 912, a scaled back 911 and the rest is history.
993 Targa
Unlikely to ever own one and rather wasted where I live but the 993 Targa for me. Love that sliding glass roof.
I’d go for a 911 turbo type 930 from 1988.
300hp 3.3 Liters 6 cylinders (I stole the pics on but I prefer the very same model with side grills.) ...
Owned a 964 Series
Was a 1990 Targa, just like the is photo, and how I do miss it! ...
911s are gorgeous cars with tons of presence...
...either moving or standing still. My only issue with them is this; they are GTs (Grand Touring) automobiles. They should be fast but comfortable. But every article I've ever read about them mentions that they are noisy at speed. Mostly road noise/tire r...
They have the speed and grip of sports cars...
...but most are automatic transmission, and if you look at your photos, they have grown huge and heavy over the years. They are a weird mix of GT and sports to me. You can order the 'T' version that is lighter and probably more true to the spirit of the o...
It's true, I think Porsche hits their weight targets by sacrificing sound deadening and comfort. Iconic status seems to have earned them a free pass on this.
Too small and noisy for a GT car, too big with useless rear seats for a sports car.... but maybe that's what makes thee 911 great even today. The ultimate compromise do everything car. I'd rather have a v12 front engine car for a road trip, a mid engine t...
Love the 997
but can't afford one, especially under the current "premium" pricing environment 😅 hope to be able to find a used 718 Cayman in the NY.
2nd generation for me.
930 would be amazing but I’d “settle” for a Carrera. I had a chance to buy one before prices went ballistic but didn’t; although the car was perfect, the seller was asking for a little too much money and I wasn’t sold on the color (Guards Red — to me red ...
Thanks
Been a member for a while but got locked out of my account and system wouldn’t let me reset password
All the greatest hits, Nico!
The 997 GTS has been the sweet spot for me since 2014 and going to add a 992 Carrera T before the petrol engine is banned in the UK by 2030. Wonder what specials they’ll come out with for 60th Anniversary next year?! ...
I’ve always pictured you a vintage 911 kind of guy.
I appreciate the vintage but don’t appreciate the upkeep. One of my good friends had a 964 turbo that he finally traded in towards a 488 because he got tired of chasing the gremlins and in constant repair of something. My personal sweet spot is the 991. G...
I look forward to see where your heart takes you!
No wrong choice there, Porsche can be forever cars if you decide it to be.
Thanks for a great post!
I have also never owned one but maybe one day. It is impossible to choose wrong. The prices are so astronomical, that would lead me to order a new one if able to source at MSRP.
You’re absolutely right
I have not owned one either (and maybe it works out someday?) but it’s probably impossible to go wrong with any 911….they’re magnificent sports cars.
Stubbornly Overrated... But very good once you know how to drive it...
Let me start off with the following. I really like Porsches, but I feel the vast majority of people who buy them have NO IDEA what they're buying. Let me explain... Porsches and BMWs are two luxury/premium German car marques. Porsche is considered luxury....
Highly interesting and impressive answer, my dear Patrick. Thank you so much for that. Now...
Now, about driving experience... There are indeed two schools: Those who like the electronic assistance, and yes, you are right, I already read that the recent 911 systems are very efficient. And those who prefer to face the difficulty and to feel the car...
You might want to consider a 997 series then...
The 997 generation were produced in model year 2005 to 2011. Earlier models have the risk of an "IMS" failure. The IMS is an "intermediate shaft bearing" that has the potential to fail. This problem plagues all engines up until the 2008 model year. It als...
Right! Although the Mezger engine has its own set of problems...
The Mezger engine, designed by a man named Mezger, has certain unusual reliability problems. Sometimes they're dramatic. So everything needs to be carefully scrutinized. But I would say any of the 997 GT3s are extremely desirable cars. The steering is won...
Yes. Although avoid 2009s.
There are two sub-generations of 997s. Porschephiles call them 997.1 and 997.2. You'll notice that the headlight and front bumper changed and the rear taillamp changed as well. I would get either a late year 997.1 or a late year 997.2. The first couple of...
Yes. But if you're considering a GT3 model, this is less of an issue...
GT3 models generally don't have the IMS issue. And even the 997.2 GT3 doesn't have direct injection. So if you're looking at a GT3 model, you're completely safe! But they have their own problems. Basically, if you drive the car hard, you need to check hos...
Wow, I missed some great posts over the holidays! Patrick is on the money. One thing to note is 911s don't really dance imho, best drive before you buy!
The big fat tires on the back and weight balance mean most of the time the car wants to understeer, car really needs to be moving and on the power to get it play and then you're going quite fast, np for the track but tough on public roads. As Patrick note...
Visualizing that made me want to go for a drive!
Unfortunately, it's pouring rain out here!
earlier models.....
911 from the early 1970's or maybe a 911sc.......really an amazing car to drive if it is sorted out well ...
Great pics and a great subject!
Best debated over a few nice bottles of wine! I've driven many but only owned one, an 89 930 3.2 Carrera. Before buying it I had the chance to test drive the 964, 993 and 996 but the 930 was the most charming one with the thin steering wheel even though t...
As an occasional toy
The 964 but they've gone up a lot in prices like most air cooled, followed by the 930. I love the small blocks (2.4 or 2.7 but that's almost out of reach nowadays). My current use dictates near daily usage and for that reason in my case 996 would be my ch...
Hi, not sure you mean 1989 930 (3.3 turbo) or 1989 911 3.2 Carrera.
They are quite different animals.
Fat and heavy
Up to the F-series, the 911s were rather light and nimble. By growing them fatter and bigger, Porsche has done those enthusiasts a disservice who want to feel their cars directly, visceral and analog. The G-series started the gain weight disease in 1974. ...
It would "fly" once you got over 200 km/h
It was a real work-out to keep it on the road. If you look at the gaps around the door or the hood, you will notice that it was in very good shape.... We had completely gone over the body in 1977/78. There had been zero rust-proofing from the factory :-(
Great post, Nico
In my very personal opinion, the 991.1 is my favorite one (although all generations are great). I just love the styling, the lovely taillights and the face with the smoldering indicator lights, plus it was the last generation with naturally aspirated engi...
930 = Widowmaker
I have driven lots of 911s on the street and track - the modern varieties are relatively tame and well sorted out -- but the older turbos were dangerous. The 911 Turbo aka 930 picked up the nickname " the Widowmaker " because of its unusual driving charac...
2,7 RS
2,7 RS I still remember a day in Sydney (while I lived in Australia) where a friend of a friend gave me the keys to his right hand driven 2,7 RS. “Take it for a spin, and see you in the evening” And, he said that in the morning One of my best cars days ev...
It was
The gentlemen also promised me a drive sometime later in a GT3 with race specs.. but the day before I came back he had smashed it on the race track, and the second GT3 he had was in Melbourne..
