Finishing has become an obsession for some, but I ask is it the Emperors new clothes?

Apr 06, 2018,09:21 AM
 





What makes for a great watch, the qualities that transcend it from being a good watch to classic, maybe even iconic, the height of desirability?

I thought about this a lot, recently in the Patek forum; Nico raised a question in the debate of the finishing of the 5370p vs 5170p. Also I heard the 5070 Patek chronograph pretty much described as boring from the owner of a Dufour Simplicity. This made me think, what are the qualities in a watch that I desire, that make it sing to me, make me want it. So before I list them, pause for a moment and think (maybe even write down what it is you desire).

So here are some pictures (Credit SteveG) of perhaps the most beautifully finished watch ever made, the aforementioned Simplicity.








So for me here are the most important characteristics of a high-end watch (we are talking at least 20K Euro).

1.     Aesthetics: it has to look beautiful to my eyes. I will be looking at the dial all day, so that in particular has to appeal to me.

2.     Timekeeping: It has to be reliable and accurate- that also means serviceable now and in the future

3.     Finishing: this is certainly a very good plus point

4.     Value: Some degree of value retention (I can not afford a watch that may loose 75-90% of its value)

 

Then there are complications, the value and desirability is inextricably linked to what the watch can offer, world time, chronograph, minute repeater etc.

 

All of these values/criteria are blended together mentally when I look at a watch- even if it is now a very sub conscious action.

 

So in this fusion of parameters, just how important is finishing? Thinking hard about this issue, I decided for my benefit to classify finishing into tiers of perfection. You may or may not agree with me, that’s your right, this is my view. I have only gone with a few brands just to give an idea and only from the classical school (Richard Mille for instance fails on aesthetics for me so I am not really bothered how well or not it is made). 

 Tier 1: this is the best of the best for me: from what I have seen. Even in a tier there will be hierarchy, so here I say if the maximum achievable out of 10 is doable, then it is Dufour’s Simplicity. It gets 10. But then he is no longer alone in this rarefied world Rexhepi, Voutilainen, etc. easily fall into this world. They are all heavy 9’s atleast.

 

Then I feel some anxiety, I believe on the verge of Tier 1 but certainly above tier 2 are some Laurent Ferrier, maybe even some Journe.



























Tier 2: This is Lange, Journe and high end Patek Philippe, Vacheron maybe some Audemars Piguet. JLC Duometre may be at this level.  Early LUC perhaps. The trouble is not all the collection fits in this level because I would say for all the brands listed here except perhaps Lange all fit in tier 3 also.
























Tier 3: AP, VC, Patek, some higher end JLC etc.

 

Why do I need to make this distinction? For me this was an important exercise to frame the concept of value and desirability.









I now put this into context. Take the Simplicity. I do not believe that’s in terms of finish it can be surpassed. It is the benchmark to world for standard setting. At the list price of 30-60CHF, I see this is as good piece to be bought. The watch itself offers nothing additional other than the finish. It is aesthetically classical not what I would call extraordinary (but that was not its reason for being). The movement itself is very classical in design. Put simply you buy it for the hand finishing. Today I ask, would I pay $200+ at auction? No. There are many factors; I would be worried that after Msr Dufour retires who will service them? One of the reasons Msr Dufour still works pretty much alone, is his exacting standards, no cutting corners: will a future watch repairer uphold to this standard?

The other issue is that today, for pretty much the same level of finish (9.5/10), you can get Rexhepi. But this comes with the added bonus of a more beautiful visual movement and a good certainty that the company, young company, is laying the foundations for the future, so servicing can be maintained from its creator. The same of course applies to Kari Voutilainen. Are you happy to pay $150K plus for a signature? (The same is often said for high-end brands e.g. Patek Philippe– you are paying for a signature, so perhaps some will pay a quarter of a million for a time only watch- their money I guess).

The added bonus with the newer masters is the addition of complications e.g. from the likes of Rexhepi and Voutilainen. Now I see value in the equation.
















Then there is the ground between tier 1 and 2. FPJ and Laurent Ferrier especially produce highly accomplished finishing and add complications to the reckoning.
















The question, the dilemma, is the totality of the watch outweigh the singularity of the finishing?

Nowhere is this better exemplified than tier 2. Here we see some of the biggest names in the business. The higher end Patek Philippe, Vacheron and Lange. They offer finishing of what I believe to of a superb standard (at least 8+/10) and the added bonus of servicing, future proofing them from death by neglect (depending on the owner of course).

So does a tier 2 watch, usually with complication and very good standard of finishing make it less equal to a simple time only piece with exemplary finish? Well you decide what are your priorities, but for me  depending on the price of acquisition, usually the tier 2 will be champion. I just demand more from my watch. I need it to keep me interested.

 

I throw a curveball here too. What about vintage Patek Philippe time only? In the days when Patek Philippe was probably making a few thousand (if that) pieces, the finishing was incredible (I hate to say it, but superior to modern Patek tier 3 watches). Just look at the cal, 12 ‘ 120” and look at the finishing, you can see the modern inspiration in finishing standards from these movements.









At the end of the day, just how much you want to deliberate over finishing is an individual decision. But for me the desirability, qualities that make a watch truly desirable are far from just anglage, or Geneva wave. I finish by demsonstarting this by comparing two watches. From the two greatest watchmakers of our era, Msr Dufour and Dr Daniels. The Millennium watch and the simplicity. Both time only. The Millennium movement was from Omega, the cal.2500: the first to embrace the co-axial escapement and the Simplicity a lesson in finishing that can never be emulated. But of the two, give me the Millennium every day because it house a true horological innovation from the man who invented it. And Roger Smith and company will be there to service it long into the future.







Bottom line, finishing is very important in a high-end watch, but there is so much more, much more to savour in fine timepiece. Maybe not Emperor’s new clothes, but a touch of reality in a world where we are brainwashed by media into “finishing, finishing, superbly finished, in house, finishing etc etc etc”.

 

So back to the 5370p v 5170p, the finish maybe a tad better, but that’s not what makes the 5370p possibly the greatest post 2000 Patek watch ever, it’s the complication, the dial, the case, its vintage DNA and yes it is well finished to boot.

 

These are my thoughts only; each of us will decide what we want based on our own list of values and tenants (which will be different to mine). That’s the beauty of collecting.



Pic credits: WatchesSJX,Monochrome watches, Deployant

pictures used for illustration and educational purposes only.



More posts: DufourDufour SimplicityDuometreLaurent FerrierRoger SmithVoutilainen

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Comments: view entire thread

 

Thanks Miranda, one of the most intriguing posts I've read in a long time!

 
 By: brandon1 : April 6th, 2018-10:07
I need to take some time to digest but at first review I like how you've classified the different levels of finishing and framed the question of trade-offs. Looking forward to mulling this over this weekend. Thanks for taking the time for such well-struct... 

Great post ....

 
 By: Blourenco : April 8th, 2018-15:22
These watches are only accessible to very few yet it is pertinent to describe where the aesthetic, functional and that other form of value (whatever makes you tic) comes from at its highest level of human achievement. 🧐

Fantastic post Imran!

 
 By: sham1 : April 6th, 2018-10:37
And I am in total agreement with you apart from your saying that the 5370P is the greatest Patek since 2000 I am personally partial to the 5959 in any form but then again you are the expert in this field. Finishing in a watch for me is important but more ... 

And so it should be

 
 By: sham1 : April 6th, 2018-10:57
bearing in mind it costs two and a half times more than the 5370P (yes I know the movement is ultra thin and an amazing technological feat for a split second) but I can never get around the fact that the 5959 costs more than quite a number of Patek minute... 

You’ve touched on a good topic, and very well written, bravo 👍🏻👏🏻

 
 By: Clueless_Collector : April 6th, 2018-10:53
Your Tier categories are spot on and I am into Tier 2 because I’m not seeing the back of the watch 90% of the time and the longevity was my concern when I posted “what if your indie watchmaker pass?” There are definitely more than just finishing and I’m s... 

Just as a matter of curiosity

 
 By: sham1 : April 6th, 2018-10:59
but where would you place RW Smith and the new Charles Frodsham watch in your tiers?! I have vested interest here!

Hey, that's not fair

 
 By: sham1 : April 6th, 2018-11:18
as you know more about these things than the rest of us (and especially me!!). The English style of finishing is different from the Swiss and in fact, I quite like the understatedness in RW Smith's watches with its guilded and frosted finishing. I am also... 

Great question!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 6th, 2018-15:52
Please give us a hint as to your take Imran! And this was a phenomenal opening post you've shared, thanks!

Much appreciated! [nt]

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 8th, 2018-10:10

You are too modest Imran

 
 By: sham1 : April 8th, 2018-11:13
and thanks for your feedback. Interesting observation!

Very well written and spot on!

 
 By: sleepy_templar : April 6th, 2018-11:59
To me, beautiful dial ( is it also part of finishing?) contribute also an equal importance to my decision

A lot of food for thought, my dear Imran. A lot of things to say.

 
 By: amanico : April 6th, 2018-11:12
A point you raised, which is very important to me, is the reliability, trust we can have when we'll service our champions in let"s say 10 to 15 years. As you said, who will service Independants' watches? Themselves? Will the company still exist? As for th...  

Yep. A bygone era. [nt]

 
 By: amanico : April 8th, 2018-14:30

Agreed! [nt]

 
 By: Francoamerican : April 6th, 2018-11:39

Great food for thought!

 
 By: Joepny : April 6th, 2018-11:46
I am similar to you; I aspire to Tier 2 type of watches at most and am not someone who covets Tier 1 type of watches. I like complications like chronographs & moonhases and functionality much more than the movement finish. I think everyone nowadays who be... 

This is a very thought-provoking post.

 
 By: TheMadDruid : April 6th, 2018-11:54
To me, finishing is probably the make-or-break in buying a watch (unless it's closed and inexpensive). Yet, I think I am really in the (your) tier 2/3 area when it comes to what I consider if I'm willing to spend big bucks. I would typically want more tha... 

Thanks Miranda...

 
 By: DonCorson : April 6th, 2018-12:02
for your systematic approach and such well speaking pictures. I can't argue with your conclusions, but want to add what I see in those pictures. Charactoristics of Dufour and Rexhepi They are flamboyant with: - Very wide and rounded bridge beveling - Very... 

Great post 👌🏻

 
 By: Watchonthewrists : April 6th, 2018-12:28
For me finishing is importent but also the overal look of the watch , the dail , case , markers , hands etc . A grail watch for me would be a Gronefeld , KV , GF or the new Akrivia RR Chronometre 🙏🏻

Finishing when . . .

 
 By: Dr No : April 6th, 2018-12:24
. . . it really mattered. [Longines 30CH watch and photo credit: Steve G, posted now by previously granted permission] Back then, workmanship like this was mostly appreciated by fellow watchmakers. Today, finishing has become an end in itself, and a key m...  

What a stunning post, content and structure wise. Thanks Miranda!

 
 By: agyzace : April 6th, 2018-12:37
Your balanced view on the key desirability parameters resonates with me too. Being able to get a watch whose mechanism was invented by the producer (e.g. Journe), while the functionality has a certain horological significance, and while the finishing is g... 

Thanks Imran, you made it again!

 
 By: dr.kol : April 6th, 2018-12:57
For me movement finishing is important but so is case finishing, dial, relative slimness of the watch, accuracy, power reserve, etc. A great watch is a sum of different factors. Best, Kari

Who is daily checking the finishing of his watch with a loupe?

 
 By: piccolochimico (aka dsgalaxy1) : April 6th, 2018-14:02
You summed up these general characteristics: 1.Aesthetics: it has to look beautiful to my eyes. I will be looking at the dial all day, so that in particular has to appeal to me. 2. Timekeeping: It has to be reliable and accurate- that also means serviceab...  

I would think point 4 is the most objective: put the watch on the market and you'll find out value retention pretty quickly.

 
 By: TheMadDruid : April 6th, 2018-17:46
I like your post. It's true that finishing is enjoyed only so often, except in the mind. But beautiful finishing is indeed a real pleasure those times you do grab your loop; or take some pictures and blow them up.

I thimk it adds to that magical sense of having something precious

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 6th, 2018-18:19
Rather like Gollum, though it may sometimes feel like we live under the Misty Mountains and work with orcs, yet having something precious can add value to our lives.

Thank you for a great comment, and I agree with you:

 
 By: Miranda : April 8th, 2018-09:38
If Journe and Chopard sell entry levels at that figure, can we set it as the standard for Tier 2? I'd think so. I also think so, but i do not think it always works this way..... which is a sad reality.

Thanks for the great write-up.

 
 By: mj23 : April 6th, 2018-15:26
To me, it's the whole package that makes a great watch, not just the finishing. Also, different brands have their own strengths in particular areas of watchmaking and that plays into how people appreciate certain brands over others..

Fantastic Post....

 
 By: SALMANPK : April 6th, 2018-15:38
and agree with you that there is so much more. I wrote something earlier in a different post which was along the same lines: "Its not only about anglage and perlage and Geneva stripes, thats all great but when it comes to the stuff of dreams that push bou... 

Imran, may I ask where you would put the Credor Eichi II?

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 6th, 2018-15:57
The underpart of the movement is not finished by hand, but the part you can see is pretty wow, it seems. What do you think?

Hi Spangles...I am interested in your comment.

 
 By: CL : April 6th, 2018-17:58
Where do you get the info about the underpart of Eichi 2 movement not finished by hand? I have heard about Simplicity but never heard that about Credor Eichi. To me finishing is not exactly an important aspect of the watch I choose. Journes finishing is n... 

One of the articles online on the eichi ii had pictures

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 6th, 2018-18:12
They were at the studio where it is made. The article noted that the parts underneath are cleanly machine finished in a utilitarian way like a Rolex, with a picture to support this. As for FPJ, I have looked at my FPJs with a 10x loupe. I'm no expert, but... 

Thanks :-)

 
 By: CL : April 6th, 2018-19:30
I will probably have my friend to ask them directly. From what I know, they actually go all the way to make sure the underneath are nicely finished too. I used to own several Simplicities, a Kari Observatoire and had also owned several Journes before. So ... 

May I ask what article is that?

 
 By: CL : April 7th, 2018-08:09
I am interested to know more about it.

I will look!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 7th, 2018-10:54
In the meantime, here is one with a picture of inside the movement watchesbysjx.com While here is another by sjx which show some pearlage done to dial-side parts watchesbysjx.com

Oops, and Jackpot!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 7th, 2018-11:40
The jackpot takes care of my mistakenly double-posting a link above. Here is Mike's post from 2016 showing three good pics of inside the movement, with clean mechanical finishing: www.watchprosite.com You can see a peak of pearlage on the plate un... 

These images only suggest that the movement underneath is not 'decorated'...

 
 By: CL : April 7th, 2018-13:30
which is rightly so since it is not necessary. Not sure about the mechanical finish though. I will double check but better not assume in this online era :P

Sure, I imply no disapproval of this great watch!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 7th, 2018-14:02
Any info will be welcome, thanks!

LOL... No concern

 
 By: CL : April 8th, 2018-05:54
I didn't think you were implying anything. Just curious where the info comes from as I ask fellow collectors and no one know the answer.

I spoke to a close friend

 
 By: CL : April 8th, 2018-07:01
who is a very knowledgeable guy and had interviewed the Micro Artist watchmakers. He said they told him the put equal effort on the back of the movement, which are not seen. This was what I had heard in the past too. So I am very curious which blog or art... 

Oh, well if you have inside info, then I'd go with that!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 8th, 2018-08:43
The finish on the plate with the spring drive quartz regulator is plain, as we've seen, but calling it machine finished may be wrong. Personally, I'm glad to have the conversation and learn more. I'd like a high-end piece for daily wear and am fond of blu... 

Philippe Dufour certainly seems to rate Eichi II finishing very highly...

 
 By: KMII : April 6th, 2018-23:27
Almost at the same level as his own creations.

Yes this is true [nt]

 
 By: Blourenco : April 8th, 2018-15:29

finishing

 
 By: poseidon1964 : April 6th, 2018-19:49
i will like to add this to the most philosophical question finishing is important if it is associated with symmetry and visibility especially the wheels take for example the amagnetic movement27AM 400 you see wheels you see symmetry one of the most amazin... 

Congratulations on a terrific choice!

 
 By: sham1 : April 6th, 2018-20:26
How long will you have to wait for the watch if I may ask?

rexhepi

 
 By: poseidon1964 : April 6th, 2018-22:32
i hope in a year may be i will know soon poseidon

Thanks for the info

 
 By: sham1 : April 6th, 2018-23:03
as I too am considering the watch. The longer the wait the better for me as I need to save up!!

As always, a wonderful article, Imran.

 
 By: KIH : April 6th, 2018-20:45
A just question. Very just question and thoughts about watches. To me, Dufour Simplicity is a great one, but the finish quality is, well, my apologies in advance, really varies. My two were not so different - I would rate 8 ~ 8.5 (out of 10), but I saw an... 

What a post Miranda! Tough points and pictures!

 
 By: maxmanzo : April 7th, 2018-07:51
Being relatively new to the horo-world, I do get the point of dividing finishing quality into tiers, but I have some problems in defining what characteristics must be evaluated and how to rate them in order to decide what movement falls into what tier. An... 

+1! [nt]

 
 By: maxmanzo : April 8th, 2018-12:41

Supreme Finishers!

 
 By: mustafadurrani : April 7th, 2018-10:37
I think presently Romaine Gauthier sits at the very top in terms of finishing, and I have every reason to believe he excels in other departments, i.e. movement architecture, cases and dials, as well. He has stood the test of time along with Kari Voutilain... 

MIranda, an incredible, true collector's post, thank you

 
 By: Mostel : April 8th, 2018-14:10
Posts like these are so nuanced and fascinating. This is what The Purists is all about. My thoughts: Voutilainen--I owned one--the finishing is not in league with Dufour. I 'knew' this the second I held the piece and turned it over. Was I disappointed? ye... 

Thanks for articulating your take on this topic so well!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 11th, 2018-17:56
May I put to you the questions I asked Imran: -What do you think of the finishing on the Credor Eichi II, which is clearly meant to be a kind of homage to Dufour. -How do you feel about the finishing of a Roger w Smith or Frodsham? Many thanks, and apolog... 

Fascinating question

 
 By: Baron - Mr Red : April 8th, 2018-23:57
And also timely. I was chatting with Miles recently and exactly this topic came up. Miles indicated that, to him, the finishing on a watch movement is secondary to the aesthetics of the dial and the case. I was in agreement with him. However, it occured t... 

Damn my entire collection is third tier.... 😢

 
 By: Katzky1 : April 10th, 2018-23:45
Thank God I have a stash of Grand Seiko watches to keep up appearances.

What a great post! Very thought-provoking. I agree with most of what you shared.

 
 By: Obeezy : April 11th, 2018-05:31
Some of it though is subjective and based on one’s own sense of value, preference, etc. It is interesting that the independents are moving up the hierarchical ladder! Which I agree with! Their passion and personal inspiration comes through fantastically i...