amanico
[JLC Moderator]
400951
A lot of food for thought, my dear Imran. A lot of things to say.
A point you raised, which is very important to me, is the reliability, trust we can have when we'll service our champions in let"s say 10 to 15 years. As you said, who will service Independants' watches? Themselves? Will the company still exist?
As for the finishing, I agree with you, it is only one factor, not THE factor for me, but an important one, though. The detail which will make the difference between a good watch and an excellent watch.
Now the watch can have a superb finished movement, but it may not sing to me. Not the only factor, then.
You mentioned the Duometre, which raises another question / factor: The originality of the movement conception. The Duometre is a champion, here, when it is not the absolute watch in terms of movement decoration. Now, if you compare a Cal 240 from Patek with a 38x from JLC, the last one will not be a shame in this comparison.
Now, if you compare, and you did it with reason, modern movements with vintage movements, we clearly have a problem.
Look at this:
Jaeger Lecoultre WWW
Jaeger Lecoultre Mark 11:
Both watches under 10, 000 Euros. Both movements superbly finished...
How much will you have to spend for an equal level of finishings, nowadays?
Food for thought...
Best,
Nicolas
💰552 Marketplace Listings for Jaeger LeCoultre›Jaeger LeCoultre Duometre · 1 for sale · 3139 discussions›
Finishing has become an obsession for some, but I ask is it the Emperors new clothes?
What makes for a great watch, the qualities that transcend it from being a good watch to classic, maybe even iconic, the height of desirability? I thought about this a lot, recently in the Patek forum; Nico raised a question in the debate of the finishing...
Thanks Miranda, one of the most intriguing posts I've read in a long time!
I need to take some time to digest but at first review I like how you've classified the different levels of finishing and framed the question of trade-offs. Looking forward to mulling this over this weekend. Thanks for taking the time for such well-struct...
Great post ....
These watches are only accessible to very few yet it is pertinent to describe where the aesthetic, functional and that other form of value (whatever makes you tic) comes from at its highest level of human achievement. 🧐
Fantastic post Imran!
And I am in total agreement with you apart from your saying that the 5370P is the greatest Patek since 2000 I am personally partial to the 5959 in any form but then again you are the expert in this field. Finishing in a watch for me is important but more ...
And so it should be
bearing in mind it costs two and a half times more than the 5370P (yes I know the movement is ultra thin and an amazing technological feat for a split second) but I can never get around the fact that the 5959 costs more than quite a number of Patek minute...
You’ve touched on a good topic, and very well written, bravo 👍🏻👏🏻
Your Tier categories are spot on and I am into Tier 2 because I’m not seeing the back of the watch 90% of the time and the longevity was my concern when I posted “what if your indie watchmaker pass?” There are definitely more than just finishing and I’m s...
Just as a matter of curiosity
but where would you place RW Smith and the new Charles Frodsham watch in your tiers?! I have vested interest here!
Hey, that's not fair
as you know more about these things than the rest of us (and especially me!!). The English style of finishing is different from the Swiss and in fact, I quite like the understatedness in RW Smith's watches with its guilded and frosted finishing. I am also...
Great question!
Please give us a hint as to your take Imran! And this was a phenomenal opening post you've shared, thanks!
The finishing process is way different, different methods to produce the "English Frosted" effect, so harder to produce, but I prefer the Swiss Geneva wave. Also If we look at the anglage , I don't think its the same quality -BUT
Thats my opinion, and I am not very qualified. Best Imran
Very well written and spot on!
To me, beautiful dial ( is it also part of finishing?) contribute also an equal importance to my decision
A lot of food for thought, my dear Imran. A lot of things to say.
A point you raised, which is very important to me, is the reliability, trust we can have when we'll service our champions in let"s say 10 to 15 years. As you said, who will service Independants' watches? Themselves? Will the company still exist? As for th...
Great food for thought!
I am similar to you; I aspire to Tier 2 type of watches at most and am not someone who covets Tier 1 type of watches. I like complications like chronographs & moonhases and functionality much more than the movement finish. I think everyone nowadays who be...
This is a very thought-provoking post.
To me, finishing is probably the make-or-break in buying a watch (unless it's closed and inexpensive). Yet, I think I am really in the (your) tier 2/3 area when it comes to what I consider if I'm willing to spend big bucks. I would typically want more tha...
Thanks Miranda...
for your systematic approach and such well speaking pictures. I can't argue with your conclusions, but want to add what I see in those pictures. Charactoristics of Dufour and Rexhepi They are flamboyant with: - Very wide and rounded bridge beveling - Very...
Great post 👌🏻
For me finishing is importent but also the overal look of the watch , the dail , case , markers , hands etc . A grail watch for me would be a Gronefeld , KV , GF or the new Akrivia RR Chronometre 🙏🏻
Finishing when . . .
. . . it really mattered. [Longines 30CH watch and photo credit: Steve G, posted now by previously granted permission] Back then, workmanship like this was mostly appreciated by fellow watchmakers. Today, finishing has become an end in itself, and a key m...
What a stunning post, content and structure wise. Thanks Miranda!
Your balanced view on the key desirability parameters resonates with me too. Being able to get a watch whose mechanism was invented by the producer (e.g. Journe), while the functionality has a certain horological significance, and while the finishing is g...
Thanks Imran, you made it again!
For me movement finishing is important but so is case finishing, dial, relative slimness of the watch, accuracy, power reserve, etc. A great watch is a sum of different factors. Best, Kari
Who is daily checking the finishing of his watch with a loupe?
You summed up these general characteristics: 1.Aesthetics: it has to look beautiful to my eyes. I will be looking at the dial all day, so that in particular has to appeal to me. 2. Timekeeping: It has to be reliable and accurate- that also means serviceab...
I would think point 4 is the most objective: put the watch on the market and you'll find out value retention pretty quickly.
I like your post. It's true that finishing is enjoyed only so often, except in the mind. But beautiful finishing is indeed a real pleasure those times you do grab your loop; or take some pictures and blow them up.
I thimk it adds to that magical sense of having something precious
Rather like Gollum, though it may sometimes feel like we live under the Misty Mountains and work with orcs, yet having something precious can add value to our lives.
Thank you for a great comment, and I agree with you:
If Journe and Chopard sell entry levels at that figure, can we set it as the standard for Tier 2? I'd think so. I also think so, but i do not think it always works this way..... which is a sad reality.
Thanks for the great write-up.
To me, it's the whole package that makes a great watch, not just the finishing. Also, different brands have their own strengths in particular areas of watchmaking and that plays into how people appreciate certain brands over others..
Fantastic Post....
and agree with you that there is so much more. I wrote something earlier in a different post which was along the same lines: "Its not only about anglage and perlage and Geneva stripes, thats all great but when it comes to the stuff of dreams that push bou...
Imran, may I ask where you would put the Credor Eichi II?
The underpart of the movement is not finished by hand, but the part you can see is pretty wow, it seems. What do you think?
Hi Spangles...I am interested in your comment.
Where do you get the info about the underpart of Eichi 2 movement not finished by hand? I have heard about Simplicity but never heard that about Credor Eichi. To me finishing is not exactly an important aspect of the watch I choose. Journes finishing is n...
One of the articles online on the eichi ii had pictures
They were at the studio where it is made. The article noted that the parts underneath are cleanly machine finished in a utilitarian way like a Rolex, with a picture to support this. As for FPJ, I have looked at my FPJs with a 10x loupe. I'm no expert, but...
Thanks :-)
I will probably have my friend to ask them directly. From what I know, they actually go all the way to make sure the underneath are nicely finished too. I used to own several Simplicities, a Kari Observatoire and had also owned several Journes before. So ...
I will look!
In the meantime, here is one with a picture of inside the movement watchesbysjx.com While here is another by sjx which show some pearlage done to dial-side parts watchesbysjx.com
Oops, and Jackpot!
The jackpot takes care of my mistakenly double-posting a link above. Here is Mike's post from 2016 showing three good pics of inside the movement, with clean mechanical finishing: www.watchprosite.com You can see a peak of pearlage on the plate un...
These images only suggest that the movement underneath is not 'decorated'...
which is rightly so since it is not necessary. Not sure about the mechanical finish though. I will double check but better not assume in this online era :P
LOL... No concern
I didn't think you were implying anything. Just curious where the info comes from as I ask fellow collectors and no one know the answer.
I spoke to a close friend
who is a very knowledgeable guy and had interviewed the Micro Artist watchmakers. He said they told him the put equal effort on the back of the movement, which are not seen. This was what I had heard in the past too. So I am very curious which blog or art...
Oh, well if you have inside info, then I'd go with that!
The finish on the plate with the spring drive quartz regulator is plain, as we've seen, but calling it machine finished may be wrong. Personally, I'm glad to have the conversation and learn more. I'd like a high-end piece for daily wear and am fond of blu...
Philippe Dufour certainly seems to rate Eichi II finishing very highly...
Almost at the same level as his own creations.
finishing
i will like to add this to the most philosophical question finishing is important if it is associated with symmetry and visibility especially the wheels take for example the amagnetic movement27AM 400 you see wheels you see symmetry one of the most amazin...
Congratulations on a terrific choice!
How long will you have to wait for the watch if I may ask?
Thanks for the info
as I too am considering the watch. The longer the wait the better for me as I need to save up!!
As always, a wonderful article, Imran.
A just question. Very just question and thoughts about watches. To me, Dufour Simplicity is a great one, but the finish quality is, well, my apologies in advance, really varies. My two were not so different - I would rate 8 ~ 8.5 (out of 10), but I saw an...
What a post Miranda! Tough points and pictures!
Being relatively new to the horo-world, I do get the point of dividing finishing quality into tiers, but I have some problems in defining what characteristics must be evaluated and how to rate them in order to decide what movement falls into what tier. An...
Supreme Finishers!
I think presently Romaine Gauthier sits at the very top in terms of finishing, and I have every reason to believe he excels in other departments, i.e. movement architecture, cases and dials, as well. He has stood the test of time along with Kari Voutilain...
MIranda, an incredible, true collector's post, thank you
Posts like these are so nuanced and fascinating. This is what The Purists is all about. My thoughts: Voutilainen--I owned one--the finishing is not in league with Dufour. I 'knew' this the second I held the piece and turned it over. Was I disappointed? ye...
Thanks for articulating your take on this topic so well!
May I put to you the questions I asked Imran: -What do you think of the finishing on the Credor Eichi II, which is clearly meant to be a kind of homage to Dufour. -How do you feel about the finishing of a Roger w Smith or Frodsham? Many thanks, and apolog...
Fascinating question
And also timely. I was chatting with Miles recently and exactly this topic came up. Miles indicated that, to him, the finishing on a watch movement is secondary to the aesthetics of the dial and the case. I was in agreement with him. However, it occured t...
Damn my entire collection is third tier.... 😢
Thank God I have a stash of Grand Seiko watches to keep up appearances.
great insights and discussion Imran, one question where would you place Grubel Forsey under which Tier? i would say that GF is probably the only one that is on Par with Philippe Dufour
if not exceeding his finishing IMO of course thanks
What a great post! Very thought-provoking. I agree with most of what you shared.
Some of it though is subjective and based on one’s own sense of value, preference, etc. It is interesting that the independents are moving up the hierarchical ladder! Which I agree with! Their passion and personal inspiration comes through fantastically i...
Tool, toy, status symbol and object of art
I guess, watches are a combination/compromise of largely 4 functions - tool, toy, status symbol and object of art. Each buyer/collector subconsciously assignes his own weight to these functions when considering a watch. Depending on the weight of an objec...