DonCorson
[AHCI]
3358
Are we shooting ourselves in the foot with our demands for "manufacture" movements?
I've been ruminating over this question for a while and I want to hear your ideas.
Are we shooting ourselves in the foot with our demands for "manufacture" movements?
On one hand the market seems to be demanding unique movements even from manufacturers making only small quantities of watches, such as the independents. On the other hand the prices of such watches have been increasing in leaps and bounds to astronomic levels.
My question:
Is the uniqueness of a watch dependent on the uniqueness of its constituent parts or on the uniqueness of its total functionality or form?
Or, more down to earth:
Is there really a utility of any kind in having no part in a watch movement be shared with that of another movement? If there is, then is that worth the price difference and potential parts supply problems for repairs in the future?
As an example, I have some watches below that all use the same basic gear train from the 7001 movement. These are just the first that came to mind, I am sure there are many more to be found. Are they less because of that? Or is the creativity that they exude not related to the sourcing of some of their parts at all? Or none of the above?
What do you think?
Don
Vianney Halter Antiqua
Hautlence HLQ
Ballouard Upside Down
Urwerk UR203
Community
Discover Gary G's watch collecting philosophy, daily wear choices, and insights into independent watchmakers in this Purist-of-the-Week feature. Learn what drives a seasoned collector.
118 replies28680 views
Independents
Gary G's in-depth review of the Philippe Dufour Simplicity. Discover wearing impressions, design coherence, and community debate.
79 replies26906 views
Collection
Bernard Cheong reviews the Seiko Galante, a secretive, high-end line. Discover its unique design, hand-finishing, and comparison to Rolex and independents.
41 replies21714 views
Independents
Gary G celebrates his 2000th post with his F.P. Journe Simplicity. See a rare gathering of Dufour watches and insights on independent watchmaking.
71 replies19393 views
Independents
Discover the value of atelier visits to independent watchmakers like Romain Gauthier, De Bethune, Kari Voutilainen, Vianney Halter, and Philippe Dufour. Gain insights into their unique philosophies and craftsmanship.
35 replies17414 views
Collection
Explore GreatPilot@me.com's Vianney Halter collection, featuring the rare platinum Antiqua and Deep Space Tourbillon, and his personal encounter with the independent watchmaker.
62 replies17211 views
Are we shooting ourselves in the foot with our demands for "manufacture" movements?
I've been ruminating over this question for a while and I want to hear your ideas. Are we shooting ourselves in the foot with our demands for "manufacture" movements? On one hand the market seems to be demanding unique movements even from manufacturers ma...
Not only foot but also a knee
Think your pictorial said it all + very good & important issue "potential parts supply problems for repairs in the future" Sincerely Damian
The question is good, Don , but ...
... the example is not that good, as the Antiqua is based on the Lemania 8810 not the Peseux 7001. However, your point is right : does the fact that some part are sourced from elsewhere spoiled the quality of these watches ? In other words, where is the i...
Merci, Philippe
Thanks for a very good reply. I'd agree 100% with what you say. When I had the pleasure of meeting you and Vianneny (and a couple of watches!) in Paris a few years ago the VERY last thing on my mind was "Is it a manufacture movement?". In the presence of ...
Paris in march
Hello Nick, Yes indeed, I remember you. That was in march 2006, during an horological dinner organized by our Alex ! We really had a good time ! Cheers
Shame on me ! You're right ...
.... the 8810 is an automatic mouvement !! However the Antiqua winding system is anyway a creation of VH (probably is not satisfied with the one of the Lemania). Actually the 7001 is a manual caliber. As VH used it as a basis for his VH Goldpfeil Jumping ...
Don, just a remark.
The 20x collection from Urwerk doesn't use the 7001. The 201 has a Lajoux-Perret base while the 202 and 203 use a GP automatic caliber. Your question is very interesting. The 7001 is a very reliable movement and powerful enough to animate the complication...
Fantastic question Don!
.. and Damien hit it on the nail! For the question of whether a watch without a full in-house movement have it's value reduced, we only have to look at the following watches for an obvious answer, to name a few: Patek 5070/5970 Speake Marin Piccadilly, an...
I didn't know this was a problem
Hmm, I think it's fine to use base movements or trains/escapements etc. from existing calibers, sure. Where I get riled is when makers are purposely vague or outright untruthful about the 'in-house-ness' of their movements. I wouldn't want to see any less...
Compelling arguments...
... and (without wishing to usurp anyone else's prerogative) - "Welcome!". It's always good to hear [read] a new voice on matters such as these. Cheers, pplater.
"Why in-house movements are not for Communists"...
Is it fair to assume that (as with most things) 'the market' will sort this out for us? What is the market? Try this as a formulation: "That body of people with sufficient interest, sufficient knowledge and sufficient resources to be likely to acquire (on...
well said mate
" We will test the claims to ‘genetic purity’; we will compare and contrast the genius; we will gasp or sniff haughtily at the finish. We will then vote – with our wallets. " this captures it all.
i fell in love with your NEUTRAL point of view
or opinion on the issue as a whole... it requires someone with wisdom to be neutral in this regard in order to come out with such a reading as the one you just explained... as i find in-house movements seductive and of an objective type in some cases in m...
You're too kind, Faisal....
....looking forward to your further post. Cheers, pplater.
Watches have movements inside?
I thought it runs by itself, power by tiny swiss elves that required feeding every 5 years? On the side note: thanks to hororgames for summarising your thought into short sentence. I always need an executive summary when encountering your long, well writt...
How can you reach
Orgasm by horology? Impossible! Hence forth thou shall be hororgames. cen@jkt
Charlie is certainly worth 4x . . .
. . . as X would approach a value of 0 without him. He's not the Wembley Whammer for nothing . . ....
here is my answer ...
i personally recall myself a year ago when swatch group declared that no moevements parts to be sold anymore... i jumped off the ground back then and i was happy thinking that would be a berline wall like infront of watchmaking claimers who pop up every f...
Isn't it like the engine of the car?
How the car runs or engine works is, well, sort of, universal, and most of the internal combustion engines have lots in common. The new models boast more power, more fuel efficiency, or more automated computer system, etc., but the basic concept of the en...
Don, I suppose this comes back
to the never-ending 'in-house" debate. I fall on the side that the base caliber does not matter as it's whats done that counts. There are some new in-house chrono movements which do not have the reliability or even feel of the workhorse 7750. I would not ...
some personal thoughts as a watchmaker
Don, I'm more in favor of providing luxury watch buyers with a movement containing "technical" improvements. As a long time watchmaker, I remember well the basic manual wind movements manufactured by many small Swiss companies in the 1960's which were lat...
Informative and spot-on, Jack.
And fantastic to see the perspective from someone at the coal-face. I completely concur that getting to the guts of durability and serviceability is what I'd like to see. Increasingly, I see (to be impolite) unproven, Rube Goldbergish creations that reall...
Improvements?
Hi Don, Good questions. Are manufacture movements an improvement? Here's another way of thinking about it. Hope-Jones makes an interesting remark that the jumps in precision timekeeping and longterm stability from the classic Graham escapement to the Sync...
Lack of ebauche variety
Very good discussion, and as my perspective is limited, I'll only offer a thought I don't think was covered above. As is well-documented, in the past many manufacturers used ebauches from outside suppliers and then modified or finished them to unique stan...
An interesting debate...
Don, you have asked a very good question; do we care more about purity of form or the purity of having a movement individually manufactured for each watch? I fortunately have a somewhat simple answer... Among independents, it is not imperative for me to h...
Great Topic
I agree that the fervor for in-house movements has reached almost absurd proportions. Just because a movement is constructed in-house doesn't make it better or more reliable. I think everyone who commented raised valid points about the constant pressure t...
Another angle is...
the strange fact that the biggest alternative movement makers Sellita and Soprod, who in the meantime are producing in some quantities, are for the most part simply copying ETA movements (as are the Chinese too). More of the same? It is interresting to he...
I have a rule-of-thumb for high-end watches...
....if the movement can be replicated easily-enough such that the end consumer would have more-than-reasonable difficulty distinguishing between the genuine article and a well-made (but entirely theoretical) replica, then I would not consider the watch fo...
That automatic URWERK UR-203 is not based on the Peseux 7001, Don
The gear train on the UR-203 is based on an automatic winding Girard Perregaux calibre. URWERK's UR-103 has a movement based on the Peseux 7001.