"Why in-house movements are not for Communists"...

Nov 02, 2010,01:04 AM
 

Is it fair to assume that (as with most things) 'the market' will sort this out for us?

 

What is the market? Try this as a formulation: "That body of people with sufficient interest, sufficient knowledge and sufficient resources to be likely to acquire (on a willing but not anxious basis) one or more higher-end watches, with or without in-house calibre, within the near future (say 12-24 months)".

 

Why only 'people with sufficient interest, knowledge and resources’? Well, realistically, who else is going to be parting with five, six and sometimes even seven figure sums for these miniature mechanical marvels? Moreover, it makes good sense from a manufacturer’s perspective to align the product with the preferences and aspirations of this group: they will likely be the ‘thought-leaders’ who will, by their advocacy, credibility and leadership, swell the ranks of potential customers.

 

Why 'willing, but not anxious'? It is the time-honoured valuation model which corrects for the outliers at either end of the bell-curve. In this context, it removes from the equation the false market sometimes created by a clever marketing ploy, demand for the nec plus ultra (think Dufour), or sheer chutzpah (think Artya).

 

Why ‘higher-end’? It is only within this bracket (where ‘higher-end’ is effectively equivalent to ‘higher-value’) that it matters to the interested and knowledgeable consumer whether or not the movement in her or his watch is the horological equivalent of a rugged mass-produced tractor or a hand-built temperamental F1 car. The disinterested and unknowledgeable consumer is either purchasing at the lower end of the market (where the distinction does not arise) or otherwise represents the small proportion of the sufficiently well-resourced who will buy a watch at the higher end by reference to other factors (e.g. brand prestige, ‘bling’) regardless of its internal geometry or ‘elfish’ finish.

 

Why ‘within the near future’? Not only the larger brands, but now also many of the Independents, are seemingly locking into a one year development and marketing cycle. Whilst there will be several exceptions to prove the rule, think how many brands now turn over a large part of their catalogue each year, generally at around the time of Basel and/or SIHH. How many of the major brands are so self-assured in their market dominance that they consider they can afford to release nothing new in a twelve month timespan? How many of the frontrunner Independents are content to go back to Basel two or three years running with only the same watches to display? We increasingly demand to be shown the next and latest ‘thing’ and, when shown, our need for instant gratification means that we want it, and we want it now !

 

This ‘compression’ of the development and marketing cycle permits brands and watchmakers alike to refine their offerings in order to respond immediately to the shifting vespers of fashion; to world economic circumstances; global sentiment; technological advancement and competitors’ innovation. A by-product of this effect is the rash of LE watches and small volume, or brief, model runs: also, it would now seem, the modish push to show an in-house calibre.

 

This year will be very interesting from this perspective. We have seen PSM’s new Marin 2; we hope to see the McGonigle brothers’ first in-house calibre; Kari Voutilainen is supposed to be giving us his own; Roger Smith will channel George Daniels; maybe another Vyskocil (watch, not movement) will be delivered; Christian Klings pops up from time to time; Montblanc and OP are trotting out new movements, etc etc etc. When we see them we will pore all over them: those who can afford them will fondle them in the metal; those who, for now, can only wish will zoom in on the hi-res scans and the glossy marketing publications. We will test the claims to ‘genetic purity’; we will compare and contrast the genius; we will gasp or sniff haughtily at the finish. We will then vote – with our wallets.

 

It is at that point, perhaps, that the watchmakers’ gambit will be vindicated or will come undone. Will you pay X units for the in-house movement by Jagger when the equally impressive in-house movement by Richards is only one-half X? (Just testing, here, to see if Art is reading…). Will you pay 3X for Wood’s new model with the in-house movement when his equally beautiful, but ETA-derived, watch from last year was only X? Will you be happy to pay X for a very well made Wyman with a re-finished Peseux movement but baulk at paying 4X for the very similar (but allegedly all in-house) Watts? Finally, what about that genius Jones? He made some sensational watches driven by Longines, Zenith or Peseux but this year (just before he drowned!) he released similarly sensational watches featuring his own (untested) movement. How should you rate the one watch by this master against the other?

 

Have faith in market forces: as watchmakers know very well, market forces will answer all of these questions for you - probably within the year.

 

smile

 

 

Cheers,

pplater.


More posts: DufourGeorge DanielsMcGonigleRoger SmithSpeake-MarinVolker VyskocilVoutilainen

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Are we shooting ourselves in the foot with our demands for "manufacture" movements?

 
 By: DonCorson : November 1st, 2010-11:11
I've been ruminating over this question for a while and I want to hear your ideas. Are we shooting ourselves in the foot with our demands for "manufacture" movements? On one hand the market seems to be demanding unique movements even from manufacturers ma...  

Not only foot but also a knee

 
 By: Ares501 - Mr Green : November 1st, 2010-14:09
Think your pictorial said it all + very good & important issue "potential parts supply problems for repairs in the future" Sincerely Damian

The question is good, Don , but ...

 
 By: Philippe M : November 1st, 2010-14:42
... the example is not that good, as the Antiqua is based on the Lemania 8810 not the Peseux 7001. However, your point is right : does the fact that some part are sourced from elsewhere spoiled the quality of these watches ? In other words, where is the i... 

Merci, Philippe

 
 By: nickd : November 2nd, 2010-07:09
Thanks for a very good reply. I'd agree 100% with what you say. When I had the pleasure of meeting you and Vianneny (and a couple of watches!) in Paris a few years ago the VERY last thing on my mind was "Is it a manufacture movement?". In the presence of ... 

Paris in march

 
 By: Philippe M : November 3rd, 2010-00:33
Hello Nick, Yes indeed, I remember you. That was in march 2006, during an horological dinner organized by our Alex ! We really had a good time ! Cheers

Shame on me ! You're right ...

 
 By: Philippe M : November 9th, 2010-07:36
.... the 8810 is an automatic mouvement !! However the Antiqua winding system is anyway a creation of VH (probably is not satisfied with the one of the Lemania). Actually the 7001 is a manual caliber. As VH used it as a basis for his VH Goldpfeil Jumping ... 

Don, just a remark.

 
 By: foversta : November 1st, 2010-14:51
The 20x collection from Urwerk doesn't use the 7001. The 201 has a Lajoux-Perret base while the 202 and 203 use a GP automatic caliber. Your question is very interesting. The 7001 is a very reliable movement and powerful enough to animate the complication... 

Fantastic question Don!

 
 By: sidneyc : November 1st, 2010-16:03
.. and Damien hit it on the nail! For the question of whether a watch without a full in-house movement have it's value reduced, we only have to look at the following watches for an obvious answer, to name a few: Patek 5070/5970 Speake Marin Piccadilly, an... 

I didn't know this was a problem

 
 By: bedbug : November 1st, 2010-17:56
Hmm, I think it's fine to use base movements or trains/escapements etc. from existing calibers, sure. Where I get riled is when makers are purposely vague or outright untruthful about the 'in-house-ness' of their movements. I wouldn't want to see any less... 

Compelling arguments...

 
 By: pplater : November 1st, 2010-22:51
... and (without wishing to usurp anyone else's prerogative) - "Welcome!". It's always good to hear [read] a new voice on matters such as these. Cheers, pplater.

"Why in-house movements are not for Communists"...

 
 By: pplater : November 2nd, 2010-01:04
Is it fair to assume that (as with most things) 'the market' will sort this out for us? What is the market? Try this as a formulation: "That body of people with sufficient interest, sufficient knowledge and sufficient resources to be likely to acquire (on... 

well said mate

 
 By: Hororgasm : November 2nd, 2010-02:47
" We will test the claims to ‘genetic purity’; we will compare and contrast the genius; we will gasp or sniff haughtily at the finish. We will then vote – with our wallets. " this captures it all.

i fell in love with your NEUTRAL point of view

 
 By: aldossari_faisal : November 2nd, 2010-05:21
or opinion on the issue as a whole... it requires someone with wisdom to be neutral in this regard in order to come out with such a reading as the one you just explained... as i find in-house movements seductive and of an objective type in some cases in m... 

You're too kind, Faisal....

 
 By: pplater : November 2nd, 2010-05:47
....looking forward to your further post. Cheers, pplater.

Watches have movements inside?

 
 By: cen@jkt : November 2nd, 2010-06:08
I thought it runs by itself, power by tiny swiss elves that required feeding every 5 years? On the side note: thanks to hororgames for summarising your thought into short sentence. I always need an executive summary when encountering your long, well writt... 

Remember, Cen...

 
 By: pplater : November 2nd, 2010-06:26
... lawyers are paid by the word! ;-) Cheers, pplater.

hororgames?

 
 By: Hororgasm : November 4th, 2010-11:50
I like it....i will henceforth be known as hororgasm aka hororgames!!!

How can you reach

 
 By: cen@jkt : November 4th, 2010-15:32
Orgasm by horology? Impossible! Hence forth thou shall be hororgames. cen@jkt

Charlie is certainly worth 4x . . .

 
 By: Dr No : November 2nd, 2010-22:43
. . . as X would approach a value of 0 without him. He's not the Wembley Whammer for nothing . . ....  

here is my answer ...

 
 By: aldossari_faisal : November 4th, 2010-04:11
i personally recall myself a year ago when swatch group declared that no moevements parts to be sold anymore... i jumped off the ground back then and i was happy thinking that would be a berline wall like infront of watchmaking claimers who pop up every f... 

Isn't it like the engine of the car?

 
 By: KIH : November 2nd, 2010-02:41
How the car runs or engine works is, well, sort of, universal, and most of the internal combustion engines have lots in common. The new models boast more power, more fuel efficiency, or more automated computer system, etc., but the basic concept of the en... 

Don, I suppose this comes back

 
 By: DaMctosh : November 2nd, 2010-04:49
to the never-ending 'in-house" debate. I fall on the side that the base caliber does not matter as it's whats done that counts. There are some new in-house chrono movements which do not have the reliability or even feel of the workhorse 7750. I would not ... 

some personal thoughts as a watchmaker

 
 By: jfsuperior : November 2nd, 2010-06:42
Don, I'm more in favor of providing luxury watch buyers with a movement containing "technical" improvements. As a long time watchmaker, I remember well the basic manual wind movements manufactured by many small Swiss companies in the 1960's which were lat... 

Informative and spot-on, Jack.

 
 By: BDLJ : November 2nd, 2010-17:48
And fantastic to see the perspective from someone at the coal-face. I completely concur that getting to the guts of durability and serviceability is what I'd like to see. Increasingly, I see (to be impolite) unproven, Rube Goldbergish creations that reall... 

Improvements?

 
 By: nickd : November 2nd, 2010-07:23
Hi Don, Good questions. Are manufacture movements an improvement? Here's another way of thinking about it. Hope-Jones makes an interesting remark that the jumps in precision timekeeping and longterm stability from the classic Graham escapement to the Sync... 

Lack of ebauche variety

 
 By: tee530 : November 2nd, 2010-09:22
Very good discussion, and as my perspective is limited, I'll only offer a thought I don't think was covered above. As is well-documented, in the past many manufacturers used ebauches from outside suppliers and then modified or finished them to unique stan... 

An interesting debate...

 
 By: patrick_y : November 2nd, 2010-09:41
Don, you have asked a very good question; do we care more about purity of form or the purity of having a movement individually manufactured for each watch? I fortunately have a somewhat simple answer... Among independents, it is not imperative for me to h... 

Great Topic

 
 By: Meehna : November 2nd, 2010-10:36
I agree that the fervor for in-house movements has reached almost absurd proportions. Just because a movement is constructed in-house doesn't make it better or more reliable. I think everyone who commented raised valid points about the constant pressure t... 

Another angle is...

 
 By: DonCorson : November 2nd, 2010-12:11
the strange fact that the biggest alternative movement makers Sellita and Soprod, who in the meantime are producing in some quantities, are for the most part simply copying ETA movements (as are the Chinese too). More of the same? It is interresting to he... 

I have a rule-of-thumb for high-end watches...

 
 By: jmpTT : November 3rd, 2010-18:48
....if the movement can be replicated easily-enough such that the end consumer would have more-than-reasonable difficulty distinguishing between the genuine article and a well-made (but entirely theoretical) replica, then I would not consider the watch fo... 

That automatic URWERK UR-203 is not based on the Peseux 7001, Don

 
 By: Ian Skellern : November 9th, 2010-08:49
The gear train on the UR-203 is based on an automatic winding Girard Perregaux calibre. URWERK's UR-103 has a movement based on the Peseux 7001.