Mark in Paris
[Purist]
10488
Well, frankly, I don't know, it is out of my knowledge
Even if I totally understand your factual points (price gap increase between high-end and lower, pressure on volumes because of the crisis...) I think that such field within the Luxury sector cannot only be analyzed from the rational side, there is also all what happens in people's mind when considering these kind of goods (sidenote: I write this as I'm readin your answer and I see you take this point into account at the end as well).
Will the balance go on your side or on another more optimistic side (from the brand's side of course)? I don't have a clue.
People get quickly upset when the crisis comes in and go quickly the other way when things a only starting going better. What will be their reaction in the future (middle term)?
But I think the Steel models are not just lower-priced watches that can be used to face difficult times, I think that, for Patek, they are to be taken as Gold or even Platinum models. I wonder if it won't be better for Patek to limit pricing for gold watches, compared to trying going toward Steel. Choosing steel would be also seriously "damaging" vintage steel watches value (thus image legacy). Not a good move imho for important references (though the 5960 in steel doesn't bother me at all.... don't know why by the way).
What do you mean by restructuring the collection?
I don't think that the "price building" of the 5930 is accurate the way you present it, on the contrary of the 5270's I talked a while ago (I presume you meant 5975 and not 5575). The 5975 has a very complex case to craft and is an annivesary piece. The 5270 is placed out there also because of its iconic place in Patek's history thus it should be less that the sum of 5170+5140 imho.
Nevertheless, if you look at the 5905P, which is in Pt, the 5930 is correctly priced imho but not that low.
I would preferably take a 5960R and just replace the AC by a simpler WT module: thus a similar price price (61K€ in 2013+CHF increase + market increase) as the WT is less complicated than an AC.
But this is really rough estimates Kari.
We'll see how things turn out in the few next years but I don't think Steel brings a good solution 
Nice discussion.
Cheers, Mark
[Baselworld 2016] Detailed impressions on the Patek Philippe World Time Chronograph 5930G
Hi everyone, As I said in my previous pre-review of the 5230 reference, two of the main novelties from this 2016 Basel fair have particularly attracted attention -- the new World Time references: Patek Philippe 5230 World Time only and Patek Philippe 5930...
Really great Mark!
I have digested the watch for a week now and it already feels much better. Perhaps my slightly negative first impression was because of the blue dial. Everybody has introduced blue dials, a lot of them, and I am already bored with these blue dials. I hand...
I followed the same path
First day, I put it aside and was attracted by the 5230 and 5327 (and several rose gold models as well but not as clearly). Now I'm understanding it and estimating it much better. In fact, I'm really surprised to say this but if I had to buy something it ...
AC is a very useful daily complication
and chronograph is something one learns to use often. At least I use the chronograph on daily basis. For me the World Time is a "romantic complication". By looking at the time, I know automatically what is the time in cities important to me like London an...
What you say is true
in the mean time, I decide if I like or don't like a watch by taking it as a whole, as it is, thus don't look at the "usefulness" issue or how it could have been with this or that other complication. It is a fun intellectual exercize but not the reflex I ...
I liked especially your
"and don't try to imagine how it would be in the most perfect combination, otherwise i don't think I would ever buy a watch."
What I mean is that
I have managed quite well to buy watches even I do not consider them perfect. Let me take an example. Ref. 5960P was introduced in 2006. It did not turn me on at all. Sometimes around 2014 I started to look at it with "new eyes" and ended buying in 2015 5...
I totally got it Kari
and, fun fact, I went the same way concerning the 5960: it wasn't my kind of watch (especially I think because of the pushers that reminded me a watch I didn't like when I was a child). The fact I saw this watch in a very different context since (and in t...
One of the greatest watches
during the past 10 years. And this does not belong to the very expensive super complications - I would even say that in steel it represents great value. Best, Kari
Great introduction to a great reference
I completely agree with you, the 5930 brings some modernity to the collection; you can definitely see that modernization is Thierry Stern’s mission – and quite understandably if the company wants to remain. Having seen the 5930 live this week (sadly behin...
Indeed I think he has to make the next step
as his father made the previous one from the Henri Stern era. By the way, Thierry Stern was at the head of the design for a while (from 1998 if I'm correct) under his father's period. So it is a continuous evolution and didn't start in 2009. Henri Stern a...
It leaves me totally cold. It just proves that when Patek wants to balance the different elements of the dial, they can.
What is what I regret on the 5230. Now, this reference 5930... It lacks soul, romantism, it can be young, with soul and charm. It is maybe young, but without soul, charm, sex appeal. The only good part, the case, which I find nice. But the dial, the hands...
Nicolas, I think you may miss the point
When the Nautilus was launched in 1976 it was clearly not a Patek, at all either at that time. But today, would someone say they shouldn't have done it? Of course not. I think I tried to explain is precisely that there are new pieces and especially new de...
One of the things I love in Patek
is its complexity. I do not mean obvious complexity style Richard Mille but design and idea that requires time to be totally understood. It's clear to me the Patek lets always the designs mature a long time before releasing the new watch and during the "c...
"idea that requires time to be understood"
I also love when that happens and I must say this is usually even better that way. That's why I will see how 2015 or 2016 novelties for instance look in 5 or 10 years from now before judging. If it works like a Nautilus then I will be "satisfied"... to sa...
Mark, as you have perhaps noticed,
my preferences are all the time changing or developing. Let's take 5975. I was offered the "G" version early 2015 and I said "no thanks". Now I have started to appreciate the dial and overall execution of 5975 and what happened - I will pick up my favouri...
I think I had a clue yes :)
This is such a specific dial layout and even a very unusual mechanical feature (second hand only chrono but completely relevant as these 3 scales don't need more than a 1-minute length), that it will remain a singular reference. You did well imho. Cheers,...
My problem has always been a slow head...
But this time I was lucky. The get the idea of the design of 5975 took only one year! Best, Kari
Difficult to say.
I had my bright moment with 5975 and understanding it took just one year. I spend some 35 years with 3700... and I'm getting older every day so perhaps ref. 96 in five years? Best, Kari
There are so many...
And Patek's history is full of them. I've been spending quite a long time recently admiring the 5565. Cheers, Mark Credit: Sothebys ...
Please don't!
I applied for this watch. I did not get it but still I intend to get the next simple (or chronograph) steel watch. Mark, now when you have admired 5565A, can you understand why I'm crazy about these steel beauties? Best, Kari
Oh yes I do
And hope nevertheless that it will be a special model and not just a different colored version. I'd like something more unique. We'll see if it happens... Cheers, Mark
We all love unique or special models
and that's the reason why I do not stop dreaming about 5170A with sector dial or something similar than 5565. Best, Kari
Will it remain a dream, I don't know (unlikely imho)
but for sure if it is nicely done it can be one to get, especially a kind of 3-hander... The 5170A would be very speculative and difficult to control Communication-wise. When you know how hard it is to deal with the good clients who couldn't be satisfied ...
Mostly we can agree but not completely now.
I believe that the times are getting so complicated for the Swiss watch industry in a couple of years that also Patek needs to adapt a totally new strategy. It will not work a very long time that one keeps the high prices, mostly washes the faces of watch...
Well, frankly, I don't know, it is out of my knowledge
Even if I totally understand your factual points (price gap increase between high-end and lower, pressure on volumes because of the crisis...) I think that such field within the Luxury sector cannot only be analyzed from the rational side, there is also a...
Interesting debate
An interesting debate, where the watch industry is heading. Take the introduction of the Daytona 116500 - it took everyone by surprise, as the ceramic bezel leapfrogged the gold and two tone models. Whilst by itself this is great news for Daytona lovers, ...
Daytona is a good example.
The old Daytona was a difficult watch to get and the only way to get it without waiting was to pay some extra. Now the new model will be very wanted and it could have been priced much higher but Rolex decided not to do that. I think it illustrates prepara...
Yes but Tudor remains clearly separated from the Rolex brand,
and the Daytona has always existed in steel (it is a kind of toolwatch) and you can do everything on Tudor without jeopardizing the Rolex image. Totally different from getting a cheaper steel Patek imho. Cheers, Mark
True.
I am not speaking about a cheaper Patek - think about 5565. The price was not very different compared with YG Calatrava. The goal would just to create some additional excitement on the market place. Best, Kari
I am looking for action
and a new steel Patek, especially a limited one, means always action. Best, Kari
I don't know but what I think is
that every brand is different (depending on what price area it belongs to) and Patek is even a very different brand from others in the same high-end segment. This to say that comparing brands and their watches is very difficult. Steel watches for Patek is...
Yes and no...
Mostly I agree. But still there are a lot of buyers who are looking at PP, VC, Breguet and something else. And then price is one of the factors influencing to the final decision. Best, Kari
To be honest,
I do not believe that Patek will go for steel on a larger scale. But limited supply - why not. Patek needs to create excitement on the market place and one good way is to create watches like 5565. Patek needs to be in the headlines and new watches which a...
I just checked the price list when 5905P was released:
Compared to 5960P, the price decrease was 11.5% and if replacing the buckle of 5905P with clasp, the price reduction was 10%. Best, Kari
Interesting discussion and
value for money is indeed important but I would not say that a Tudor is a Rolex. The new BlackBay is nice in its own category and I have considered buying one but in my opinion it is not as nice as a Submariner, simply look at the case design; one is chun...
+1 Phileas
Like I replied above, it is very hard to compare different brands, especially when they don't belong to the same price segment. That's why it is also very difficult to see what will be the real impact of the crisis on these high-end brands for instance. I...
The crisis are already there;
at least mini-crisis. The only difference is that the inventory is in the disposal of AD. Think what the situation was say three years ago. The AD had a very slim Patek inventory and now the shelves are full. It will be hard to push the 2016 collection to...
First of all,
I buy very few other watches than Patek. Secondly, naturally a cheap perpetual is not the same as Patek. But is it "justified" that Patek is costing 10 times more. Thirdly, Thierry Stern is the President and Owner of Patek. Whatever he is saying, should b...
For sure if you work or own a watch company you are partial to some views on the industry, however
lowering prices and introducing cheaper models l will be damaging in the long term in my opinion; in the mid-term it is best to have moderate growth and keep your head above water. Building a brand like Patek took a long time, I don’t think they will sacr...
Understood and partly agree.
Like I said to Mark, the main thing would be to create some excitement on the market. "Rare and different Patek". Such watches go to the 2nd hand market like 5565, Anniversary watches, etc. and make people believe that Patek is an "investment grade watch"...
Loosing money depends on the reference:
Buy a Calatrava like 5120, you loose some 40% if you take it to a shop a week after. Same story with most of ladies' watches. Buy Nautilus 5711 or 5712, you loose nothing, you gain nothing. Buy 5131 or an Anniversary piece like 5575 or 5595, then the "mar...
Totally agree with your 1st paragraph
And getting a 5565 like model (thus very limited in volumes) is not the same thing that more significantly including steel watches in the colelction in order to lower prices. Concerning your 2nd paragraph, I don't know if it should be interpreted as "good...
I am speaking about a kind of hype...
Think about Nautilus 3712. The Nautilus collection was not very active after 3700 before 3712. Patek launched a really beautiful watch with the original case construction and produced it for only 9 months. This Nautilus 3712 was quickly sold with remarkab...
Yes but this has to do, imho, with a familly development
and not material matter. Including the right new reference/version into a family, or as a totally new one, is always good if nicely done. Not too many but a little from time to time. This is personal but I think it is well balanced today (5235 at one time...
We both seem to love the brand
but I am probably more critical. On the other hand you are the Mod. Best, Kari
I think that the difficulty relies in how we anticipate the overall opinion of the clients
and its purchase behavior. Btw, being mod. doesn't imply I should be nice, this is not my way to see it. But it is just because I think there are also positive elements we could consider in the discussion. And it is when I feel there is an opposite argume...
I am always critical,
whatever the issue is. But even I'm critical, I think I am showing my positiveness in average every second month or even more often by buying a new Patek Philippe. Quite a lot of words but still giving the most positive sign possible: buying the product. ...
A very fine way to consider them indeed.
What matters is facing our own decisions and purchase. Have a nice week-end Kari. Cheers, Mark
Nice weekend to you, too.
I'm going today for a week to Lapland. This time of the year when the sun is shining there past 8 pm but there is still around 1 meter of snow, is pretty fantastic. And on my wrist the trusteed 5960A. Best, Kari
Well, I don't think it is just about modernity
Every designer can bring modernity in a watch but it doesn't mean it is good. How it draws from the fine styling periods is important. It has to show a less classical and romantic spirit than the classical line-up while keeping good taste and elegance (th...
I like it a lot!
Thank you Mark for your post! I like the 5930G a lot. Of course, I've seen it only on the internet, and my opinion was made up with very convincing wristshot and very beautiful macro shot. I appreciate the PP's effort on creating something at the same tim...
I'm gald you enjoyed it :)
I see we're exactly on the same line here, this diversity seems to be really well carried forward. "Timeless" is the word and is what prevents something from being just a fad. Thanks a lot for sharing the logo "plaque" as I never paid attention to this in...
The star of the show this year for me.
Thanks for the great write up. I love this watch - the case, dial, lugs and the combination of complications. As already mentioned a longer chrono would be better, but I saw this watch as first and foremost a world time watch, with the chrono an added bon...
It's my pleasure Russ :)
As I said, I didn't feel that way the first day but as I got deeper into the watch I think I feel exactly the same now. There are so many elements that work perfectly together in this watch. For instance, I found the 5496/5396's case a little cold sometim...
Thanks Mark for another detailed write-up on the WT series ! The 5930 is an ...
attractive watch (from photos and write-ups that I have seen) First, it has the guilloche pattern similar to the 5110 which we all agree is an icon (guilloche in conjunction with other numerous aspects such as hands, size, etc.). Second, the blue (with gr...
Indeed, a very nice reference
once we understand it and accept the change with an open mind (aesthetcial tastes taken aside of course). Indeed the pattern is similar and it is funny to see that it can match a 5110's very classical and "dressy" watch so as 1960's smart casual one as we...