patrick_y
[PuristSPro Moderator]
33579
Ok. I agree with you actually. I concede. I'm changing my stance. But is there a point to what we prove even if we all agree?
The industry may not agree with me or us. But I agree with you and BigFatPauli. I'm changing my stance. Yes, a Tourbillon Patek Philippe minute repeater with the solid gold wheel and Tourbillon bridge does show more finishing details. There's "more of it" not necessarily at a higher level though. But let's say it's a higher level. What did we prove? We just proved that a $500K watch that happens to have "more finishing" possibly "higher finishing" than a $20K watch. But let's bring it down a bit. Does a $20K and a $120K watch have different finishing? Not really. The $120K might likely be double assembled if it's a perpetual calendar. And yes, does a $500K Tourbillon minute repeater with the nice Tourbillon bridge and the nice solid gold wheel better than a $380K 5078 minute repeater which seems to have little special finishing or "less of it." What does that mean? That for a little more money, get the $500K watches - as this is the sweet spot to get more/higher finishing? What's our point? If our point is that Patek Philippe's $500K watches are finished to a higher level than all their other watches, okay, I get it - debatable (some people might not say "higher" they'd just say there's more of it - we disagree since we think the gold wheel is special and the Tourbillon bridge is special).
So the question is really, how do we differentiate "more of it" from a "higher level of finishing." If you look at anglage, let's equivocate it to crown moulding in a house on the ceiling. A bigger house with more bridges is going to have more crown moulding on the ceiling. A huge room will have more ceiling layers, vaults, etc. But is that higher finishing level than a smaller room that just has crown moulding on the ceiling? Or is it just more of it? No, Patek Philippe added a gold wheel - that's got to count for something in this example. A Swiss industry person would say - so we added a ceiling fan in the middle of the big room - what's the big deal?
I'm just saying, this is how a Swiss industry person will look at it. But I agree, I do think the Tourbillon bridge is special and I do think the gold gear is special. But to a Swiss industry person, they'd categorize that as "same level, just a more of it, more interior angles, but not a higher level of difficulty nor is it considered a higher level of art.
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When did Patek finish quality change? Moderator Edit: It hasn't changed.
There are lots of posts here showing machining marks etc visible on Patek's anglage. Obviously producing at their scale and hiring the people needed is not viable. But when did the brand loosen standards around finishing? If I pulled something from say th...
Ever since the Patek Phillipe Seal was introduced back in 2009.
It seemed to be a thing only with the 324 calibers. The higher end ones have great finishing, not slightly as great as their minute repeaters with Dufour-level finishing but still.
Perhaps around the time when Kid Stern took over... and eventually decided on their own PP 'certification'.
Sad really to watch from the sidelines, and hopefully PP releases a new Conneseur Series that attempts to compete with the many true independents that produce the very finest handcrafted timepieces. Yes, Pateks $500,000+ are finished fairly nicely, yet th...
I've been hoping to see PP do that same thing
A series of simple, extra fantastically finished time only watches. You know they've got the capability! And the watch market has the interest, I think.
Employee retention might be PP's problem too.
Seems many of the very best watchmakers are smartly creating their own timepieces, or working together with true independent visionaries. Of course we can always hope that Patek... it's really up to the Kid Stern me thinks. As always, jmho.
Always love your posts and enthusiasm, but I think you're shooting from the hip here...
I'm not aware of any facts that support your claims here. Clearly the disdain for Thierry Stern you've exhibited does imply you may not be objective. The fact of the matter is that Patek Philippe is a desirable firm to have on your resume. And like the be...
Yes, points well made. Thank you.
Guess it mainly comes down to seeing what appears to be better craftsmanship techniques and very interesting complications, even for basic time-only pieces, elsewhere (imho of course). Hopefully, PP's Conneseur Series will be able to truly extend their cr...
Patek approaches from a conservative angle.
Probably arguably a too-safe angle. Breguet actually takes more risks sometimes than Patek Philippe - a lot of silicon parts in Breguet at all price levels. Also, Breguet has put in a lot of state-of-the-art new technology into their very classic watches ...
I don’t pay attention to finishing on Pateks
one of the least important aspects of a Patek watch to me
I’m sure they can trhow enough money behind it to make it happen
But finishing is just not their focus
Finishing is a more recent phenomenon. Cozmopak is quite right.
Finishing is an old game, an old sport, and not a challenge. Finishing doesn't require big expensive R&D departments. To create an exquisite finish doesn't even require a super difficult skill - I've sat there finishing watches before. I could get good at...
Absolutely
I always thought of Patek as a complications master. Finishing is one of the least important features of their watches to my eyes. This obsession with high quality finishing that permeates the watch community is simply boring in my opinion. That's not to ...
Indeed!
Finishing is not a low priority at Patek Philippe, but it's old news - not a challenge. It's like the sushi master who knows every day he's going to have to beat and tenderize the octopus with his own hands. It's a skill, but it's something he does every ...
Yup!
And to me finishing was a major differentiator when I was a starting watch collector. Like wine, what separates expensive wine from less expensive wine is usually the amount of new wood barrels used. Finishing is a major differentiator and it does set the...
Not so much for Patek
There really is very little correlation with finishing quality and price when it comes to Patek watches. Most serious Patek collectors are collecting the brand’s watches for their historical significance. There is a stronger correlation between price and ...
Great point on early vintage references.
Pre-1975 PPs are interesting. Agreed. Now imagine being there at the earliest of years, this may be why many of today's true independents are desirable. Only a handful of examples are produced annually too. As best I can tell, none are doing 5,000 qty a y...
And lastly, Patek Philippe finishing doesn't change!
Patek Philippe watches are all finished to the same level. Yes, some more expensive models may have more interior angles. But that's not a "finishing quality" argument. That's an architectural argument. The fact is that Patek Philippe many decades ago use...
Patek Philippe is definitely capable of a lot!
Breguet re-created Marie Antoinette's watch. Think of the man hours and the costs associated to only make one of those and it isn't even for sale. So anything with a lot of drive and passion can be done. Patek Philippe also has a more profit-oriented edge...
I would disagree here... More clarification needed.
There is some confusion here as to how to define finishing. More expensive Patek Philippe models aren't generally finished to a higher standard than normal Patek Philippe models. BUT! More expensive Patek Philippe models do have more components and more i...
Are all modern pateks finished to the same grade?
To my untrained eye, this doesn't seem so. The anglage on something like a minute repeater seems much wider and rounder than on something like a 6119. Likewise, I'm not sure if the lack of interior angle is due to engineering constraints or lack of parts ...
Generally YES!
As mentioned above. Generally YES. They don't take shortcuts on the cheaper models in terms of finishing. More expensive models (generally around 90,000 Swiss francs and up) do undergo double assembly though. When normal and petit complication models gene...
I've addressed this in previous posts.
This is an architectural and stylistic choice. It's not a question of which one has a better finish. Yes, the more expensive watch has more difficult bridges to decorate from an architectural standpoint. It's like if I build a custom home. I may build a 6...
Furthermore, this isn't what the author originally posted, this is an entirely separate discussion.
The topic you and others have brought up can be seen from different lenses. Consumers see your very clear example as a different level and would agree with you BigFatPauli. The industry does not see it the same way as consumers see it. They see this as a ...
This post really implies something that isn't accurate. And many of the responses are of Schadenfreude.
I'm sorry gentlemen, but a lot of you are chiming in with mostly assumptions and presumptions rather than cold hard knowledge here. And there is the Schadenfreude or the happiness in criticizing the best. The fact of the matter is, that under moderate mag...
Hi Patrick! Do we have any pictures of Geneva seal Patek movements under magnification?
I ask not to challenge, but out of a desire to see! Sounds interesting!
Not on me.
But you can clearly see the photo I put in at the top page, a photo that belongs to W220 already has chatter marks. And this is a Geneva Seal movement. I can assure you that the new Patek Philippe Seal movements have the same chatter marks. And they are n...
Now we're on a witch-hunt... But, it's a fair question!
Your post said 1990s in your original post. Now you're changing the timeline! But okay, fair question. The Patek Philippe 240 caliber debuted back in the late 1970s (around 1977, and funny thing, the movements didn't really wind well back then, even now t...
winding
my understanding regarding the winding is that it is an issue with all micro rotor movements winding less efficiently compared to full rotor movements and not an issue with 240 specifically
Correct! Almost all micro rotors have problems.
The 240 calibers don't wind perfectly. Even ones sold today are not consistent- they have their good days and they have their bad days. But this is not unique to the 240 caliber. Overall, amongst micro rotors, the 240 caliber is actually one of the better...
I encourage you to do your own research...
We're starting to become on a witch hunt to identify how the big brands on the top cut corners, and I'm trying to get away from this witch-hunt mentality. And I think that's not fair - because in a witch hunt we always find a witch - even if there isn't o...
I'm not making any complaints here at all!
You said, "Patek Philippe quality overall can be argued has changed for the worse. BUT, it's definitely not for the reasons mentioned by any of the posters above." And I was asking to what you were referring in that statement. Thank you for explaining.
You're most welcome!
And totally understand that you're not making any complaints! It was a fair question, which is why I answered it. It's just this whole thread started from an incorrect assumption that specifically said anglage has worsened from the 1990s and when that arg...
design for manufacturing
when I was at Nike, there was a process called design for manufacturing. This is when the designer's (an industrial designer/artist) drawings and specifications get modified by an industrial engineer (an engineer) to make shoes easier to manufacture in an...
Awesome story! Yup! That happens!
I've heard from car designers who told me about this... They were the designer of the beautiful parts; but then the engineers had to make the car meet global requirements, then the car needs to be easily assembled and more cut lines get drawn, then the ca...
german silver
i have read that german silver is delicate and can discolor with finger oils and is softer. thats why lange watchmakers wear those little finger glove things. but i never connected that it makes lange movements easier to finish. does it affect movement du...
No. All of these materials are fine.
The main technical reason why companies use brass, German silver, or 18K gold is one reason and one reason only. Machinability; all these materials are machinable using modern CNC tools. And Secondly, these materials are not magnetic. Meaning these materi...
I will say that independent watchmakers who repair Pateks tell me in private that Patek's in-house movements (e.g. chronographs) are less reliable than the old Lemanias.
I say this not to besmirch any company's reputation but merely to add another anecdotal point which may be associated with an overall decline in quality. We have: 1.increase in production 12-fold 2.move from independent standard geneva seal to patek seal ...
I can't comment about reliability. Simply not enough data. There are only a few hundred of each - and these watches aren't used every day. So bad sample and limited sample size.
I will say, the new in-house chronographs are meant to be more precise, more accurate, easier to maintain/repair, and easier to assemble. An overall improvement supposedly. Also, the people who owned Lemania movements sometimes didn't use them everyday as...
I will say, Patek Philippe Annual Calendars are very unreliable.
I'd say I've seen several annual calendars suffer problems in the first year of ownership. Date change doesn't work properly. Funny thing, the date change will work correctly if you advance the time by the crown, but it won't work if the watch is on a win...
Here's my dream if I win Powerball...
...buy whatever PP watch I like, simple or complicated. Ship it to someone like Rexhep or Dufour and have them tear it down, re-finish it, and put it together again. It would make a $100k watch cost $200k or $300k but it would be worth it : )
I love independents...
...so yes, just buying one would be the right move. I'm talking about things like a vintage 3940 or the like. Of course, one would have to be very wealthy because it would be a rather silly thing to do : )
I've had a similar idea!
Here is a sillier one that I am planning to someday do: Take a watch I like. Such as the Rolex 1908 and have a watchmaker I know give the movement some hand finishing. Just something I'll enjoy, obviously silly. Will be fun someday in the next 10 years or...
Rexhep or Dufour might not like your idea at all!
If we think from their perspective... Why would they want to better someone else's work and not have any credit - the name on the dial isn't going to change to their name. Still - I get where you're coming from. It's not a bad pipe dream!
Hard to say... You could be right...
I don't know neither of them well enough to say if this would or would not work. Dufour and I haven't communicated very much. And Rexhep and I have only met a few times but I've only really spoken to him over one luncheon. But if they're gentlemen, they'd...
Oooh niiiiice, Powerball dreams...
Love the idea, tho would skip PP and go right to the very best watchmakers. Another idea that's been in the back of my mind, a $500k 'challenge' where each gets $500k to four or five independents to see what they create. Roger Smith MB&F Rexhep Rexhepi Ph...
I have a question: If the reason the finishing is better on an ALS than a Patek is because of German Silver vs brass...
Why are the screws and hands also worse on a Patek? Also, how come other brands that use brass movements look so much better than Patek?
I personally feel ALS finishing is better than PP
Based on what I can see. Especially PP finishing gets better as prices go up. ALS is much more consistent regardless of pricing. Also I don’t think both materials really matter. We are not comparing with Titanium which is much harder to finish than brass ...
Walt
Walt odets has said that the dial side finishing of Lange movements does not match the case back side finishing. This approach doesn’t feel as authentic to me because a true craftsman (think Japanese sword makers) would do their best work even on the comp...
That's partially true.
That was true a long time ago. Lange cut some corners a long time ago by not finishing parts you couldn't see or sides of parts you couldn't see. Today, Lange will finish everything to a very high standard, including the parts you don't see.
First, thank you for your participation Mj23!
PP finishing does not get better as prices go up, to say that is oversimplifying and taking out of context. Here on WPS, we have a higher standard. Shooting from the hip with assumptions and presumptions based on gut feeling and not on fact is very common...
Thanks for the response and your view
I commented on the PP finishing with relation to prices based on photos I see. Not just hearsay or gut feelings. I think a post with photos a few mins ago also can demonstrate that pretty clearly.
Ok. I agree with you actually. I concede. I'm changing my stance. But is there a point to what we prove even if we all agree?
The industry may not agree with me or us. But I agree with you and BigFatPauli. I'm changing my stance. Yes, a Tourbillon Patek Philippe minute repeater with the solid gold wheel and Tourbillon bridge does show more finishing details. There's "more of it"...
I will use ALS anglage as an example to demonstrate the point.
If you look at the anglage quality from low to high price ALS models, you can see much more consistency than PP using those PP photos as comparison. The difference for ALS is much smaller than PP. And for higher price ALS, you can get inward angles while ...
You said you changed your stance but...
Then went on about justifying your original stance. I am not talking about the wheels or bridges.... I was very clear in asking if you could see a difference in the CHAMFERS on plates/bridges. This isn't about "more" of anything. A chamfer is a chamfer. C...
This is really getting out of context. This is the official statement.
The facts of the matter are; the original post was about Patek's finishing today vs 1990s. The original poster alluded, insinuated, and implied that Patek Philippe watches from the 1990s are better than more recent ones. This is - from a general sense - u...
Posting locked
Dear BigFatPauli: I really appreciate your enthusiasm for this subject. Truly do. This conversation has swayed so much from the original poster's original thread starting topic. And things are just getting too complex. And now the conversation has started...
5120 vs 5140
I don’t have access to minute repeaters or tourbillons, but did a comparison of a calatrava and a perpetual calendar some time back. This post:
These are the same caliber though, as you note in your post.
Do you not see the difference in the chamfers in the images I posted? The original statement was that ALL Pateks are finished to the same degree. Do you feel that statement is true or not?
also in terms of the materials used..It's not about hearsay either.
brass and german silver are very commonly used by different brands. To say PP finishing is less than Lange due to brass used by is harder to finish is what is out of context. Level of efforts and expertise for example need to factored in as well...based o...
Again, a 100% agreement based on hearsay is not admissible in court.
Let's hold ourselves to a higher standard here and promote factual knowledge rather than reinforcing our own presumptions. First thing we need to do is acknowledge whether or not we are an "expert witness." Today, would a courthouse and both opposing coun...
Yes. German Silver does polish to a brighter sheen and without the chatter lines...
I wouldn't say that other brands that use brass plates necessarily look better than Patek Philippe. Not sure what you're seeing, since I don't know what you're basing your comparison off of. Screws - not entirely comparable - yes, ALS and Patek both use s...
