To answer that id crisis question..

Apr 04, 2019,02:35 AM
 

I'd say yes and probably true for a number of brands out there.

The average watch lover (not necessarily a WIS) likes to be able to think in categories. Even if we say that folks would like for brands to think outside the box, even what is outside that box needs to be something familiar.

Which leads us to focus and stability as elements that underpin these categories.

The favorite examples inadvertently lead us to brands like Rolex with clear categories like the sub, gmt, or the datejust all with solid perception of what they are and all cased in a unified design language that is the oyster case. Even the bracelet has become clear categories on their own.. jubilee for "dressy", oyster for "sport" and now the oysterflex for something that's "non metal" because Rolex is always equated with metal bracelets.

What makes all these things easily accessible is the clarity of these categories and how well-entrenched the "value proposition" is in all these categories.. reliabiity, precision, history, prestige, which when repeated for decades in a very consistent and conscious manner create a stable PREDICTABLE value for the customer. I can't emphasize the word predictable enough.

Most brands don't have this sense of clarity and just adds to the confusion when they introduce something totally new that has nothing to do with values that the customer perceives as intrinsic to their brands. When going this route, again we can look at Rolex when something like the SkyDweller was introduced. Whether that category is successful or not in terms of profitability I do not know but clearly, people know what it is and the reason being is that Rolex has its rhythm down pat that it knows when to introduce a new note to a piece.. one settles on a rhythmic familiarity and after a few beats then and only then are new notes introduced.. that way the new note is noticed and appreciated as part of the symphony. And not all notes need to be strong but it needs to play a part.. and it needs to be repeated. IT NEEDS TO BE REPEATED.

And that is what most brands lack.. a bit of perseverance to let a category work its magic over time.. and these so-called notes need to be put on after the others have gained familiarity in order for the new note to get recognized.

At the mercy of probably shareholders wanting profitability and noisy customers who want innovation (even when it's not needed on a yearly basis), brands get pressured to cook up new things at the expense of protecting the primary flywheel.

The internet is of course partly to blame as it adds to the noise a LOT. Ever wonder why the best designs came during the late 90's all the ways to the later part of the decade leading up to 2010? The internet was not as noisy then and the world was a bit slower as well and people had time to digest all these categories pre instagram, FB, YT and whatever else.

What the internet did as well was to help preach the perception of watches suddenly being a store of value whether for investment or for heck laundering. In the early years, only a "few" realized this and even then the hype was not magnified even if the latest auction results were published .. I'd say the earliest part that triggered all this was the antiqourum results on a series of Speedmaster auctions which caused a spike in vintage speedmasters. I'd say it was the time after that the average price of even regular catalog speedmasters and others suddenly shot up trying to encroach Rolex territory.

So when all this came to a head, the ones who had their acts together in terms of focus and stability became the beneficiaries of this heightened perception.. Rolex steel sports, PP WT/Nauti, AP RO series to name a few (actually there is only a few of them really).. So now, with ever more awareness people see these brands/lines as great stores of value whereas before it was the province of probably artworks. And the increase in people realizing this is geometric a la hockey stick.. one can just imagine the pressure on production if the major players were inclined to meet demand.. not easy.

So where does this leave the likes of JLC?

We go back in a not too distant past when people knew what JLC was all about apart from being just a "manufacture's manufacture".. we go back to clear categories.. the Reverso and the Master Control for starters. I think the Polaris line can be a great platform as well underpinned by strong tech a la master compressor.

I think Grand Seiko, thinking along these lines, will be shooting its foot at some point with all their releases that is just as confusing.

We might think that these old categories are boring... but people like boring even if they won't admit it. People want to be able to hold on to something that's going to be there in the same familiar shape and form for the next decade or so. Why are GOOD re-issues well received? It's precisely because of all those things that I just mentioned.

One might say, well what about UN.. Ever notice how they're known for innovation and yet the design elements of their succesful lines are arguably intact.. take the Freak for example.. more than a decade it is still there in a very familiar shape (ok even with the new one that has that crown).. it has had its dips probably but it persevered I would say.

So you need to be boring for the long haul and yet be exciting at the same time. I suppose kinda like how to make a marriage work.

People like boring. People like familiar.

To wrap it all up, building clear categories take time and commitment even if it means being in periods where you're viewed as boring or not sexy enough. It was not too long ago that Rolex was viewed as boring, yes? People still probably do think of them as that. Nice thing about this boring bit is that the likes of Rolex understand people wanting to go on horological detours but that they'd eventually come around and go back to a piece or two from the crown.. that they want to stray but that they know who their momma really is so to speak.

Probably the longest sh*t I've written here but hey it's what happens when all these factors start to affect how we enjoy our hobby. It really ticks me off that I can't even PLAN on getting a piece that I want anymore so.. but then we all probably help create this madness anyway. They're all related. I'm all for the watch brands as a whole to just slow down, clear out the cobwebs and start strengthening their core offerings and messaging.

I hate your post, remarque.. it made me think. I'm retired for cryin out loud smile

Best,

Echi


More posts: DatejustGrand SeikoMaster Compressor

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Comments: view entire thread

 

perception and reality...

 
 By: remarque : April 3rd, 2019-19:35
With the announcement that JLC has discontinued the fruitless Geophysic line, my perception is that the brand is lost. Of course, due to lack of any real information from the company, I will never know if the the overlords of Richemont thought as much of ...  

Very interesting. Branding is important, personally I think iwc is another that has been on the slide for a number of years. Producing too many models, and some

 
 By: Mister M : April 3rd, 2019-21:44
might say, affected the quality. On the flip side, brands like pp, Rolex and ap, by limiting certain models are thriving. Apparently the limiting of certain models is to enhance the quality, by spending more time in making sure they produce the finest. My... 

I would be less severe and more confident. Mrs Renier took the helm of the brand a bit less than one year ago, after 4 years...

 
 By: amanico : April 3rd, 2019-22:00
4 very ( too ) prudent years. From the half of 2013 to 2018, we saw, mainly evolutions and a few introductions of really new watches, such as the Geophysic, principally. AND, let's not forget, the Reverso Tribute Gyrotourbillon. I have to agree with your ... 

Jaeger was in top form in the 1990s from a design perspective AFAIK

 
 By: VinnieD : April 4th, 2019-01:26
But the world has changed a lot since then and the company has to adapt to world tastes and desires. I hear that the work atmosphere at JLC is not great at the moment but I hope this is changing for the better. I have no internal feedback so I am taking t... 

Jaeger Lecoultre was not in top form in the 90's... At the point that this is the Compressor Line which saved the brand.

 
 By: amanico : April 4th, 2019-01:44
As for the ambience at the Manufacture, it is much more positive now... For some months. The good pieces under Jerome Lambert's reign? The Amvox I and II, for sure, the Duometres, the Gyrotourbillons, the Tributes ( Polaris, DSA, Reverso ), The Extreme La... 

Two aspects to success

 
 By: VinnieD : April 4th, 2019-02:10
Nicolas, I was expecting a swift reaction... True that there have been many nice pieces launched under the helm of Mr Lambert but no real breakthrough. All the pieces you mentioned are very creative but small product lines/tweaks/reeditions. - The Duometr... 

The XGTs? [nt]

 
 By: eklektik : April 4th, 2019-12:49

;) [nt]

 
 By: amanico : April 4th, 2019-13:57

Nicolas, let us hope that Mme Renier is rethinking and regrouping the brand along a few parallel and complementary lines:

 
 By: remarque : April 4th, 2019-20:44
1) Movements: It is overdue for the workhorses of the "basic" lines to be modernized, including the Reverso. The new movements must certainly have tighter tolerances, vide supra. 2) Decide on a focused design language for the stale yet "mature" Master Con... 

To answer that id crisis question..

 
 By: Echi : April 4th, 2019-02:35
I'd say yes and probably true for a number of brands out there. The average watch lover (not necessarily a WIS) likes to be able to think in categories. Even if we say that folks would like for brands to think outside the box, even what is outside that bo... 

And boy is that word "promise"..

 
 By: Echi : April 4th, 2019-18:37
A complex one. Thanks, Rapwatch.

Good read Echi

 
 By: Thomahof : April 4th, 2019-09:03
Thanks!

Thanks Thomahof (nt)

 
 By: Echi : April 4th, 2019-18:38
..

Good read!

 
 By: eklektik : April 4th, 2019-13:17
Although: I don't like boring, I don't like easy to spot, I don't like predictable! I own a Reverso, but nobody knows them in the world I evolve in. I also really love the subtle way the brand is written. I own a MUT, again, nobody knows what that watch i... 

Hehe thanks E (nt)

 
 By: Echi : April 4th, 2019-18:38
..

All valid points in the posts above ,regarding JLC as a brand , but in my perception this is not solely a JLC problem...

 
 By: ZSHSZ : April 4th, 2019-05:40
I think that this is a Richemont group problem across the board , and is the result of the brand greed . As you can see , Panerai, Vacheron, even Lange to a certain extent are struggling with the same problems . Compared to PP, RX, AP, where they have cle... 

Bvlgari

 
 By: furen : April 4th, 2019-06:50
I thought bulgari is an independent brand because of its strong releases the past years. I did not know its under LVMH. I agree Panerai, IWC and VC together with JLC are looking more like fashion brands than serious watches IMO. Yet these are brand with r... 

I think the name 'Geophysic' triggered everything and focused too much attention (mainly from watch experts)... from praise with the TT to the family's fall

 
 By: eklektik : April 4th, 2019-09:41
If you look at the whole JLC picture, JLC has an amazing (that's from the heart) line-up. But if you remove passion, you can define this line-up as wide and diverse. It should please everyone (women, men, classic, sport, mid and high level, even few quart... 

the current reverso grande center seconds sums up current JLC for me

 
 By: Nick : April 4th, 2019-10:24
I very recently was in the market for a watch and was interested in the JLC reverso grande center seconds. I found that while its pretty much the same exact size of the 976, it has the same movement as the medium. Its not a fitted movement, it's not a spo... 

Thank you all for your earnest consideration of my original post. I can only wish that the elders of JLC read our thoughts and take them to heart, rather than

 
 By: remarque : April 4th, 2019-20:49
pay high dollars to marketing firms for inane and uneducated focus groups and other similarly overpriced and overvalued opinions!

Descent of a brand

 
 By: Horo_Traveler : April 6th, 2019-20:45
I’m saddened by the fact that the brand no longer holds any appeal to me any more, especially considering JLC was my dream brand when I first started collecting. However I could say that about just about brand these days. Little innovation (or emotional t...