TeutonicCarFan
8440
Question for you guys
I have never really paid attention to auctions. I have bought my watches new. Now I am looking at these estimates, who comes up with them? Why are they so far off? Is there any significance to this?
Let's forget about patek. I'm a novice for watches and their values, but looking at a few simple watches you can see how bizarre they are. The PP steels are going for above even crazy grey market prices. But some watches have silly estimates...
A platinum FPJ limited black dial est 20k-40k sold for $126k
A datograph perpetual est 30-60k sold for $126k
A De Bethune perpetual est 25-50k sold for $176k
These watches estimates, seem drastically low. A 'regular' datograph wouldn't sell in that range, so why is the dato perpetual guided so low?
That's meaningless
People who want to contribute $5M to a charity don't need a watch auction to do that. On the other hand, people who want the #1 piece of a 170 super limited edition have no other choice.
Likely!
How does that work in an auction? Any value paid over upper estimate is donation to the charity? Value over msrp? Why are all these other nautilus going for crazy money in subsequent lots? They aren't for charity cause. Just big money sticking around in t...
Did some reading
Phillips answered my question in the fine print... for everyone else... Under IRS regulations, a deduction will be limited to the excess of the lot’s hammer price paid over its fair market value. Phillips good faith estimate of the Lot’s fair market value...
Hmm…
So the amount over that $52k is deductible? Amazing the watch sold for 100x over retail!! Bravo!! For charity!!
I think hammer price minus the market value..
So $6.5m minus the $53k is donation per IRS rules? Interesting Phillips says market value is 52k. That is maybe where the irs could make an argument of something fishy in taxable deductions.
I think it is the opposite, namely that a deduction can be claimed on the purchase price *minus* the fair market value (also by logic, that seems to me the amount that one is effectively giving to charity...).
From Phillips' Catalog Essay for this lot: "Subject to local laws, the buyer of this Lot may be entitled to claim a charitable contribution deduction. Under IRS regulations, a deduction will be limited to the excess of the lot’s hammer price paid over its...
Bizarre things occur at (or near) market tops.
I’m not a clairvoyant, and granted this was for charity, but many years from now I’m pretty confident people will point to this sale as one of the benchmarks that signaled the top. But for now there’s apparently still plenty of punch in the bowl. Cheers!🥂...
I wonder if the charity will receive...
... the total amount the buyer pays (ie, including the buyer's premium) or 'just' the 5.35m at which the lot was sold. Interesting to hear Aurel saying 'I'm selling at' X and then 'sold at' X and then seeing a 'sale price' which is X + 25% or so... ...
Worked in their favor
The PR generated by this seems to be generating very good premiums for the other lots 👍 knowing they could have kept their premium but instead maximized donation to charity is definitely a nice move.
I get the charity one… people can pay anything for a cause… but
what i dont get is 5711 more than 220K and 5990 at 300k. There is something unexplainable here. The buyers can get the same from greys at max 140 for 5711 brand new and 150-160 for 5711! Why the…. Somone would pay so much more😱😱😱
Yes
The subsequent lots are bizarre. Maybe the billionaires who wanted the Tiffany were set on going home with something?
Not just any 5711
This is a limited release Tiffany dial 5711…appropriate bid for such an amazing piece! Bravo to everyone involved!!
Didn’t realize inflation was THIS bad.
First, $5 for a gallon of gas, and now $6M for a 5711.
Super result for super cause
Also the watch isn’t worth it but the charity is. That’s how I choose to think about it. I would think differently if the next seller attempted to offer it at the charity mark.
Here's an extract from the pre-pandemic report on money laundering in the art market (prepared for the United States Senate)
Secrecy is “pervasive” in the art industry. Specifically: “A large number of art sales happen through intermediaries referred to as ‘art advisors’ who can represent both purchasers and sellers. In a typical transaction, a purchaser may not ask who owns th...
and De Bethune...
this is the new Journe at auctions... Watch box impact is already clear!!!
Question for you guys
I have never really paid attention to auctions. I have bought my watches new. Now I am looking at these estimates, who comes up with them? Why are they so far off? Is there any significance to this? Let's forget about patek. I'm a novice for watches and t...
my understanding is
the "estimated price" is based on what the RESERVE price will be paid to the seller and does not exceed the official price. That's all the meaning to me.
My take on this is to attract more buyers…
Who will feel they may be lucky, then they start bidding….and when someone feels they are losing, the buying desire kicks in.
I do appreciate your opening this thread, as I think it's fair to celebrate such an incredible charity result by a horological brand (along with Tiffany and also the auction house involved -- I believe that all have been key players here).
To briefly answer your question though without going into mere market considerations (which we aim to avoid on WPS), I believe that one reason for the other results you mentioned is also that Phillips is known to offer estimates for its lots that are ofte...
you are right, but
to me their goal was to get the "DONATION Rights Paper". Bid between US/UK/UAE Gas oil Companies ??? After, they could resale the watch LOL.
Wish I could feel in any way good about this!
It didn't even raise money for a worthy charity. www.bloomberg.com
I know!
It's particularly interesting in light of the many people suggesting that these watch auctions are a way of laundering money, but that the charitable organization is at least a beneficiary of that shady process. It would appear that this particular charit...
Great for the charity, I suppose...
...but it really does say a lot (and not much of it good) about the state of collecting in particular and people with monopoly money in general. And that's the opinion of a capitalist : )
Haha 😂 and very clever to not make this charity version any different, unlike AP did with their Black Panther…
Now the other 169 are even more solidly coupled in value to it than the steel APs are in relation to the 5.2 million for charity realized for the white gold piece unique. The goal of creating the ultimate hype watch seems to have been achieved 👍
How much would it have gone ...
... if not "for charity"? My guess is pretty much the same, maybe minus the marginal value of the tax deduction, so at least $3.1M instead of $5M (plus buyer's premium), assuming the US' highest income tax bracket of 37%.
New asset class developing…
Watch collecting has reached a new level of appreciation and admiration from the community. Ever since the auction of THE ONLY ONE at $31M, people wondered if that was the peak. Today marks a time where everyone will realize that these premiums are here t...
Ugh
I find this annoying personally. I find things like cars and watches a fun luxury. If prices rise because people are using as an investment, then it becomes more challenging and less fun. I use my brokerage account, etc to invest. I guess it makes it easi...
Cars
There are vintage vehicles that ppl buy due to it’s collectibility as well as appreciation in value. Look at the annual Monterey Car Week. Vintage Ferraris, Mercedes, etc. where a 1995 MacLauren F1 sold for $20.5 million in 2018. Why do you frown upon wat...
I find that type of collecting takes the joy out
Yes, maybe 3% of mclaren f1 owners take their cars out. But as prices go up, they increasingly become stored away in a garage as trinkets to show friends. That is fine but not how I view these things. A friend just got a slr gullwing, it sits nicely on th...
Certainly true
But this is just a 5711 - mass produced entry level with a different dial color. If you look for value that stays this watch is certainly something to avoid. More a piece for stupid money… P.S.: Long-term value of this should still be 300k I would say, re...
I just find it so strange that Patek is keen to alleviate pressure on the Nautilus and then does something like this.
I get the whole world is talking about Patek - but they’re talking about the nautilus. A watch you’re encouraged not to post online if you take pictures of the demo models at the salon. This was such a missed opportunity. They should have made a grand com...
I think you hit the nail on the head
Everyone is talking about Patek and Tiffany The auction house may not have shared a commission but believe ,me when another " unicorn" piece is up for sale - who yay gone acall ?? Patek got so much publivcity and lets face it , nothing like this amount of...
You are a absolutely spot on. What a missed opportunity for the world to be talking about a watch which Patek are world renowned for…… a complication.
Instead let’s just ramp up the hype for the Nautilus even more. As if it’s not enough to be 10 times it’s value already. 🙈🙈 M.
