nickd
1591
Synchronised?
When you say synchronised, what do you mean? I believe this normally means same amplitude and frequency but 180 degrees out of phase, and stable over time like this. How is the phase difference being measured over time to prove the synchronisation? If they're drifting slightly over time, the I'm not sure there's synchronisation.
Pendulums normally take a very long period to synchronise, and even given the much higher frequency I'm dubious about it taking place in seconds on a watch.
If we're just talking about two identical oscillators with nominally identical frequency appearing to be running "the same", then that's not proven synchronisation.
Personally, by eye, I have difficulty judging the exact end point of a swing: comparing two at once strikes me as nigh on impossible.
As Suitbert says, there's no data. It would be the work of an afternoon to set up an experiment that proved it with hard data: a couple of thousand dollars will buy a MicroSet and an amplitude detector per balance (a splash in the ocean for these companies, even if they don't already have better equipment), and then a few hours of experiment, and Hey Presto!...hard data.
nick
Journe' Chronometre resonance & Dufour's Duality
Hi all, I wonder if this has been discussed before, but would just like to confirm, it seems to be stated that the Chronometre Resonance from F.P. Journe is the ONLY wristwatch that utilises the Resonance phenomenon, but what about the Duality from Philip...
More later...
...and probably from others who are better schooled than I, but the big difference (no pun intended) is that in the Duality, the two balances are connected by a differential (as in a car) to average out variations in the rate of the two escapements. It ma...
I see
Hey Gary! I know you would chime in on this! Ok, yes i read about the differential part before, which i guess is missing in the Journe. But in this case, it does seem to be that the Duality do NOT utilise the resonance phenomenon! Not that that is a bad t...
Haunting words from an authorive figure.
Would like to know the intention of Mr. Dufour for mentioning this sentence. Add to the controversy of the Journe Ressonance. Mr. Papi of Renold et Papi have this comment of the Ressonance. "I know it works, the ressonance in the watch." I'm waiting for m...
As GaryG said
There is a mechanical coupling in the Duality of Mr Dufour, there is no mechanical coupling in the "Resonance" of Mr Journe. Talking with some people, it seems that it is not a "Resonance" wich is a specific physical phenomena, but the coupling found with...
to my understanding
they are physically completely different. The duality averages two balances that are not in sync through the differential; in the Resonance, they are in synchrony. To call that "Resonance" is in my view not exactly correct because resonance means inducing...
Exactly correct....
and I don't think that Dufour claims that the Duality is a "resonance" watch. Technically a resonance timekeeper should be called a timekeeper with coupled oscillators, resonance is the phenominon describing the increase in amplitude when two coupled osci...
Yes it is a great subject !
If I understood well, the statistic error is divided on the Duality with the coupling. But for the Resonance is it also the same? The theoretical precision advantage is not clear in my mind, I love her "magic" and the "playful" side of it, but the theory ...
My studies were a long time ago...
but what has remained tells me that resonance effectively increases the Q (damping factor) of the coupled oscillators compared to a single oscillator. Increasing the Q reduces the energy needed , but more importantly for timekeeping also also reduces the ...
Thanks a lot Don for your explanations !
It makes it more clear in my mind, and good luck for your experiments to regulate adjust both mechanism with the same characteristics ! These kind of watches are fascinating. cheers Francois
Q
Hi Don, My studies are as long ago as yours The Q of quart is much higher - in the 10^6 to 10^9 range, if I remember. I'm sure there's a (pedantic) terminology point to make: driven oscillators synchronise, they don't resonate. Resonance is where an undri...
Yes it is a great subject !
If I understood well, the statistic error is divided on the Duality with the coupling. But for the Resonance is it also the same? The theoretical precision advantage is not clear in my mind, I love her "magic" and the "playful" side of it, but the theory ...
double message above to suppress please
with two days differences... I even don't know how I did that. sorry dear moderators Francois
try the search function
The search function is not great, but it does work and will find lots of fascinating threads on both watches. _john
Duality has nothing related with the concept of resonance.
And it is easy to understand why: with such distance, how can they be in "resonance"? Moreover, the concept of resonance in a wristwatch is very theorical. If 2 or 3 seconds per day both regulating organs are "in resonance", it is a miracle. The Duality c...
Makes most sense...
... you learn something everyday Thanks, FX. Ken From different angle:...
Distance
FX, two oscillators can be synchronized with the distance, you just need a mobile and thin structure to transmit the oscillations without damping them. This is an example www.youtube.com My impressions ( no certainties here) Bridges of a watch are...
but then I think the Resonance is a miracle
because I am pretty sure that the balances stay in synchrony for weeks. If you listen to it, or put it on a time balance, and I even made a high-speed video of it once... it is pretty clear that the balance wheels and escapements move in lockstep. If you ...
This is the essence for me too
While the Duality might offer superior chronometry by averaging out the inconsistencies in the two escapements, the Resonance keeps the two escapements in harmony, and that is obvious to the naked eye. So both 'halves' of the time display are synchronised...
No magic, just elegant physics :)
without mechanics or mechanical solid structure link like the youtube example. The synchronization works, I saw it too, I find that beautiful, and brilliant! Just uses air boundary layers effect between the two balance wheel imho. Again, I have no certain...
...too many miracles?
Hi all, not sure the old warchrap archives are still accesible (I guess they aren't) - but the Journe resonance was discussed quite extensively years ago. The problem with this watch is - no data at all......at least not that I'd know (doesn't mean that m...
about vacuum
...others said the contrary, that it doesn't synchronize in vacuum. That's why I believe to this "aerodynamic theory", there are other possible explanations. What is sure is that I have also seen the balance synchronizing with the naked eye. You stop one ...
Synchronised?
When you say synchronised, what do you mean? I believe this normally means same amplitude and frequency but 180 degrees out of phase, and stable over time like this. How is the phase difference being measured over time to prove the synchronisation? If the...
I do recall...
... reading that someone had stuck the Resonance on a machine and watched the two "beats" come together to form the one pattern. I'm not sure what they were testing so I'm not sure what it proves (yes, sorry) but I'm sure they will chip in if s/he sees th...
It was a BHI article that Curtis posted 10 years ago!
Written by " Anthony G. Randall, Master watch and clock maker " something of a guru himself! Lots of good stuff here http://www.network54.com/Forum/125316/message/1017335421/Anthony+G-+Randall+discusses+F-P-+Journe%27s+Chronometre+a+Resonance
If Mr. Randall approves that's good enough for me
Thanks for posting. I remember the article now. nick
Absolutely
-same amplitude -same frequency but 180 degrees out of phase -stable over time like this The experiment was both were running like that, one balance wheel is stopped, then released. After... let's say 2 minutes , more? (don't remember exactly) , the two b...
If you were to take...
....two single balance movements - nice slow 18000bph ones with a big balance wheel for easy observation - and placed them next to each other....what would be the difference to the stop/start/synch observation you made? I would wager it's pretty hard to o...
you can see in or out of phase by eye, especially at lower VPH
Hello All, With some practice, one can estimate amplitude by eye to within about 10 or 15 degrees. I have no doubt that one can distinguish Resonance balances in phase or out of phase even though you'd have to know what you were looking at to be able to e...
Amplitude...
....yes, for sure you can see a difference. I've sent my eyes wonky doing it. But can you really see the changes in frequency? If they're beating together at 2.5Hz, how many beats does a say 2sec/day error between the two balances represent? 10 whole beat...
Start...
I don't know about miracles in the Resonance, but mine holds in sync (in terms of the seconds hand indicating the same seconds timing) for around a couple of weeks at a time, going out of sync when I stop wearing it and allowing the power reserve to drop....
Apparent "resonance" might be something else?
Suitbert, I had an experience with a Resonance that I will describe with the hope that you might have some insight. Of course the watch consists of two separate movements that AFAIK are supposedly directly connected to each other only in that the same win...
Actually this is quite simple....
Hi, the two mainspring barrel arbors are directly coupled through the crown wheel (on theinvisible bottom side this crown wheel is connected to the winding stem). Ifone click, of one ratchet wheel is locking, the other ratchet wheel is locked as well - it...
Thanks Suitbert...
...and happy new year to you and your family. I hope all is well with you. LC
well, mine stays in synch
at least to the precision you can see in a photo, or in a high-speed video - for about three weeks. I don't think this would be possible without the balances being synchronized. If it were off by a second in a day I would send it to be regulated and I am ...
Don't know how they behave like this Andreas
but I am more convinced now that the Journe Resonance actually works. I will wait for more scientific explanations.Fascinating thread. Cheers, dreamer
Stephen, I've read the 11 or so intervening replies before mine, and
I can't say I understand the Resonance or the Duality, but I wouldn't kick either out of bed! Best, CaliforniaJed
Like Jed's response... And my theory to the Resonance concept...
I've only seen the Duality once or twice, this is an extremely rare watch and there are only about nine (I hear) that exist worldwide. The F.P. Journe Resonance is a watch that I've experienced a bit more often than the Duality. Thus, the following will u...
Haldimann H2
The H2 Flying Resonance from Beat Haldimann uses this phenomenon directly, although I would consider it to be more of an interesting kinetic sculpture than a precision timepiece. The hairsprings have terminal coils designed for optimal connection to the c...