Introducing a New Ultra-High-Horology Brand: Fleming Watches

Mar 26, 2024,23:51 PM
 

Let's say you're very passionate about watches.  It's like your all consuming hobby.  Would you consider starting a watch brand?  


Well...  Plenty of people play Fantasy Football - in America this is a game where you pick certain players to be members of your American Football team.  Are you soccer inclined?  The same concept can be applied to any other sport.  If you were starting a watch brand, whom would you choose to be your "Fantasy" team?  

Enter Thomas Fleming.  Fleming, a young watch collector who really caught the watch collecting virus badly (I'd say he has a serious condition that's worse than most terminal illnesses) decided to make his own watch.  Hailing from Virginia, USA, Mr. Fleming is not exactly in a watch-making area - and thus he flew to Switzerland to handpick team members for his Fantasy Football team.  I'm pleased to say, today, that Fantasy has become reality - and boy, did he choose a great team.  

Imagine if you had an unlimited budget and could choose anyone to help you make your dream watch - whom would you choose?  The only thing Fleming could not do was go back in time and bring Breguet back to life and have Breguet in his company - but short of doing the impossible, he certainly created an amazing team.  Here are a couple famous names: Voutilainen's dial company makes the dials.  Jean-Francois Mojon (this fella helped MB&F with the movements on many Legacy Machine models) is involved in the movement.  

I'll let the photos do the talking/writing.  


Dial here is created by Voutilainen's in-house dial maker.  Strap is by Jean Rousseau.  This is the platinum model.  


The Jean-Francois Mojon is involved in the movement.  Notice this spring bag applying tension to the ratchet for the main spring barrel.  Bar springs made from solid blocks of metal are used rather than easier-to-find wire springs as this signifies haute horlogerie.  In fact, the Geneva Seal (a set of rules for top quality watches) forbids wire springs.  Also notice the fat anglage and the extremely difficult curved balance spring bridge that is polished by hand in the black-polish method.  


This is the Tantalum model - this model will appease many on WatchProSite as it's got a great modern look and the WPS community does not always insist on precious metal cases - we care about inner beauty first!  Notice this is the first case I've ever heard/read/seen that has tantalum and pierced lugs - this is a detail that I cannot imagine many case manufactures are willing to do.  


Fleming's designs are elegant, classic, and yet have a tough of modernity to them - the pierced lugs and the double goudrons on the case scream modernity.  Yet the dials hint at the classic movement and haute horlogerie overall.  This is the rose gold model.  Probably my favorite model - although I'm hesitant to put that in stone since I haven't seen the three models yet.  



This amazing movement shows off incredible finishing and polishing techniques.  Jean-François Mojon didn't make an easy design - this one is quite the challenge.  The movement is incredibly beautiful, rich in movement finishing complexity, and has some unexpected touches - such as the balance wheel bridge (super hard to polish this part) and the power reserve (I always like a good power reserve) indicator which is on its own bridge secured by two screws.  Just a reminder, Mojon developed this movement and has developed movements for Czapek, Harry Winston, MB&F, and other top-level watch brands.  

Full disclosure, I have not met any of the completed watches in person yet.  I haven't even gotten any emails from the manufacture nor a public relations company - these photos are photos gathered on the internet.  But seeing this is impressive.  So impressive that I felt compelled to share this on WatchProSite.  Also, full disclosure on the photos, all these photos were gathered on the internet - and not provided to WatchProSite by the brand.  They appear to be corporate photos and thus, WatchProSite takes no credit for these photos.  

Okay, so some of you now want one.  As usual, please contact the manufacturer through their website Fleming.watches is the website.  The pricing - albeit very high - is actually quite reasonable considering the ultra-high quality in these watches.  Most watches retail around 50,000 Swiss Francs or around $55,000 US dollars.  Coming from professional experience in the watch industry and in the contract-manufacturing industry, I can say with certainty, that the company has a razor thin margin here and is probably likely losing money on every watch sold on variable costs alone - and that's before amortizing the design and fixed costs.  Manufacturing these things at this quality level in ultra low volume gets horrendously expensive.  Fleming is a for profit company - but for the moment, he's almost running a charity.  

Fleming is a new watch brand that is completely independent.  The founder and creative director, Thomas Fleming, is a young passionate watch collector who decided to take playing "Fantasy Football" into the watch world.  The brand is completely independent - there is no common stock available for purchase on any over-the-counter market.  I urge you to visit the website Fleming.watches and read the website - it's surprisingly transparent, Fleming is so transparent that he even identifies where he sources many of his major parts - something that you wouldn't see in most brands.  One can tell here that Fleming thinks like a watch collector and has applied that empathy to his website.  


What are your thoughts?  Want to play some Fantasy Watch Brand?  Looking to stop being a passive collector and become an active creator?  Whom would you have on your watchmaking team?  Whomever you choose - I would say that Fleming here has a great design and has played the game well!  I look forward to your comments!  Regardless of your thoughts of this specific watch, I think we can all agree - this is an impressive achievement and definitely a brand to watch for interesting products in the future!  


Photo Credits: All photos are not from WatchProSite and are attributed to Fleming.  


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Comments: view entire thread

 

Price doesn't seem terrible...

 
 By: mdg : March 27th, 2024-00:04
...but I'm not in love...

That movement is definitely VERY LIKABLE!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-00:35
Hard to fall in love in photos - but in person - this could be highly compelling in person!

I'll levy the same criticisms I did when it came out...

 
 By: indignantdenial : March 27th, 2024-00:18
I have to admit, I was never terribly swayed by Fleming (the brand). I don’t really care about the people behind it (they're probably okay), but I do care about the venture (because of its possible impact). From everything I’ve read is an établisseur type... 

You bring a good point!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-00:43
I personally want to give a little credit here with some empathy. As someone who (like you) is very interested in watches, I have toyed with the idea of designing the perfect watch. I'm just saying, that Mr. Fleming's interpretation is darn good. And not ... 

Here are my replies:

 
 By: indignantdenial : March 27th, 2024-01:43
First, you can like the watch and brand because you're of course allowed to. My arguments clarify my gripes and attempt to argue back against the hype and marketing which I think don't accurately reflect the facts. 1. That it's real isn't in itself a toke... 

All very good points!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-02:18
You bring up three very compelling arguments. Our opinions are all a little personal and subject to our own biases. For me, I was really impressed that Fleming made this product as he did. Considering he is an enthusiast. I am using the fact that he's an ... 

Thank you.

 
 By: indignantdenial : March 27th, 2024-05:43
Like you say, it's a matter of perspective. Glad we could hash it out nicely!

Absolutely!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-18:00
And glad to read someone who has a very well researched perspective!

wow tough audience 😅..fair enough

 
 By: christianch : March 27th, 2024-00:46
I think this is a very nice watch! It reminds me of Voutilanen creations, probably because of the dial. Although you don't like the watch, I found the argument that the price should be $35K instead of $50K very perplexing. If you don't like the watch, why... 

This is indeed one tough audience!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-01:01
Value is a tough thing to quantify! And yes, we all seem to be very willing to pay $32K USD for a Patek 6119 - a basic movement, manual wind, time-only watch. Considering we're all so eager to pay that, I'd say the Patek Philippe Minute Repeater at around... 

But it's not exclusive.

 
 By: indignantdenial : March 27th, 2024-01:26
It's a Chronode C101 with a bit more pampering. I made the price comment because it's just too much to justify for a time-only from an établisseur that's issuing their first product. $50 000 is a lot of money to ask for something that's high-end but just ... 

You bring up a good point!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-02:13
Yes, this is an essentially an off-the-shelf Chronode movement, but it has been heavily modified. But we also know the movement has a track record for reliability and the problems with the movement are known. The Coyon and the Brette movements are much lo... 

Agreed. At 50,000 CHF, it was a good deal.

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-04:32
Who knows if the next one will be as fancy as this recent one. But I agree, if it's similar, $100K USD would be fair in many people's eyes.

Your assessment is spot-on.

 
 By: indignantdenial : March 27th, 2024-05:44
That's right. I was floored to find Brette's pricing be what it was when I saw what he offered.

Sure it is.

 
 By: indignantdenial : March 27th, 2024-15:34
In 2021 (which is not terribly long ago), Brette just used a subscription model; 12 pieces. Fleming has produced a total of 39 pieces (7, 7, 25). So it's slightly larger volume since we're dealing with not just one guy at the helm, and still its price is ... 

Brette watches were never available. All was sold out via friends + instagram instantly

 
 By: christianch : March 29th, 2024-20:40
is much easier to get a Patek Philippe Nautilus at MSRP than a Brette so the comparison with the listed price makes little sense.

I cannot but disagree, unfortunately.

 
 By: indignantdenial : March 30th, 2024-01:03
A lot of watches sell out like that. It doesn't matter that the watch sold out quickly because I made the comparison as a hypothetical one: presuming all else was equal, clearly the Brette is the better buy. The point is that for the price, the value is u... 

I understand your point but you also mention the Grönefeld and once again is a sold out piece

 
 By: christianch : March 30th, 2024-23:53
From the official website " Sorry, For the moment we can’t take new orders until further notice. We are now processing the overwhelming amount of reservations we’ve received after the launch of our 1969 DeltaWorks and 1941 Grönograaf. Thank you for your p... 

I see what you mean.

 
 By: indignantdenial : March 31st, 2024-03:46
However, the fact that it is presently sold out isn't a mark against it, IMO. I'm comparing watch to watch since they're pretty easy to get secondhand. But maybe what you're saying is that one has to compare the totality of the circumstance which includes... 

point taken, I wouldn't buy this

 
 By: christianch : March 31st, 2024-13:44
but none of the other "alternatives" either 😅 MG are also over priced for relatively simply manual watches, grandfather look and feel. Strom a bit more modern but nothing WOW at their prices. L&H etc. also not for me as watches have to be 🇨🇭 (at least... 

Completely agree on pricing.

 
 By: indignantdenial : March 31st, 2024-19:10
It's ridiculous, really. Unfortunately, companies will keep doing as they always have and raise the prices further into the stratosphere for the same product. That's why I'm thinking of going pre-owned for a lot of the higher end ones I'm thinking of buyi... 

This watch is very ugly.

 
 By: Cozmopak : March 27th, 2024-00:19
That is my opinion

I have a feeling they'll look better in person!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-00:43
I could be wrong, but I have a good feeling that they'll look better in person.

The cases are bulky

 
 By: cazalea : March 28th, 2024-18:24
I concur with your opinion

As you said it...it is like a football game and so it is a Bet...

 
 By: Clueless_Collector : March 27th, 2024-00:21
I see many such new watch brands are like "IPO"s, with groups of very focused and supportive collectors like "fund managers" buying into the pre-launch. Not a bad thing really, but I can't play along as stakes are too high for me. Many of these collectors... 

But big key difference here! This is a watch collector started brand - not an industry insider.

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-00:49
For a guy with no formal professional experience in the watch industry, I'd say he did a darn good job. And that's what makes him so special in my eyes. I've never met a watch collector who started his own brand without any real experience in the watch in... 

I have never played fantasy football. But give me Octavio G.

 
 By: MichaelC : March 27th, 2024-00:21
He is now off the board for the rest of you ;-) I figure Ludwig goes next...

I'll take Ludwig!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-00:51
If I made a watch - I'd also have to include those "scalloped" polished concave steel barrel gears that Audemars Piguet has in their Jules Audemars Chronometer. I just like those so much. And a huge balance wheel with a slow beat. And super thick metal pl...  

Go big or go home ;))

 
 By: InHavenPro : March 27th, 2024-01:13

Indeed!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-01:16

Posted this earlier

 
 By: m2 : March 27th, 2024-00:25
But IMO the watch lacks soul. It feels like someone picked "best vendor for X" and glued it all together. The case also appears to be poorly done with visible solder marks/overflow where lugs meet the watch case on the RG version. I posted pics earlier in... 

You're not wrong!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-00:54
I totally see where you're coming from. I'm just thinking - for a person with little experience in the watch industry as a professional - and just as a collector, this is DARN GOOD for a first attempt. Sure, I can have a great fantasy football team. But o... 

Yes

 
 By: m2 : March 27th, 2024-02:17
I noticed the same thing on the one Jules model I handled. It is the one that is huge and heavy with the exposed balance right?

I think I've seen the solder marks on more than one Jules Audemars case.

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-02:29
Can't say for certain if this one had the exposed balance.

These seem like very nice watches. There was a previous thread here with some insightful comments.

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : March 27th, 2024-00:31
In particular, one of our esteemed members noted that one may find a well-finished watch with a Comblémine dial from a number of independent brands and price points--several much lower than the one these are offered for.

True!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-00:56
Dials are the #3 cost contributor in a watch typically; after movement and case. The other ones with the Combélmine dial didn't have the same level of detail in the movement. I'm just saying, for a person at the collector level - to create this is darn im... 

well done in creating a new brand! 🔥

 
 By: christianch : March 27th, 2024-00:53
I am truly impressed by someone so young who has moved from being a watch collector to a watch creator. Owning your own watch brand is a dream for many watch enthusiasts, and I believe the creator made the right choice by putting his own name on the dial.... 

Agreed!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-01:14
Many of our WatchProSite readers are grading this watch as if it came from a big brand. Very few of us have remembered to look at it as a collector-founded brand. Once this aspect is considered, I think most of us will realize how special this brand is. I... 

Well, if I had the money and had to choose my dream team

 
 By: sham1 : March 27th, 2024-04:02
it would be Anita Porchet for a hand painted enamel dial, Jean-Pierre Hagman for the case and Andreas Strehler for the movement. And I am pretty sure that the end result would surpass Mr Fleming's effort! So if I may politely say, I am not so impressed wi... 

That'd be quite a dream team!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-04:31
So glad to read your thoughts. That's quite the dream team! But to fictionally concoct a dream watch and to actually take one to birth in reality is not entirely the same thing. Here, we have an actual product - non-fiction trumps fiction in this case. Bu... 

Dear Patrick, you are certainly making a lot of excellent points.

 
 By: als1678 : March 27th, 2024-04:42
It is not easy to put a project like this together. It requires hard work and substantial financial resources. I also agree that the result is attractive and that even though the price is high it is unclear if it can cover design and production costs at t... 

Brilliant analysis

 
 By: piccolochimico (aka dsgalaxy1) : March 27th, 2024-06:10
There are so many nice shapes to choose from, many patterns, many brands new ideas to develop that work such financial means the final result could have been extremely different. I see it as a nice collage of elements, he chose the best suppliers but didn... 

I like your analysis!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-17:44
You've clearly had empathy for both sides of the discussion and given a lot of thought for both sides! I agree with all your thoughts and I find your last paragraph to particularly resonates - that Fleming is "promising" and that there may be a bright fut... 

Good price, not in love

 
 By: T J : March 27th, 2024-07:48
I can marvel at the finishing, but I still feel like something is off. First impressions are important and this just feels like too much. It looks like a Frankenstein of a watch, albeit made from the highest quality of craftsmanship. A good statement piec... 

I can see where you're coming from.

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-17:51
It does look like 10 pounds of stuff crammed into a 5 pound box at first. But I think that's the sign of the times. This isn't a fair example, but the current Mercedes S Class seems so new-fangled and "confused" that I think the car thinks it's a half com... 

Yup

 
 By: T J : March 28th, 2024-00:24
Though it certainly isn't an issue if the brand is responsive to potential customers. They've nailed the hard part, now it's just about developing and growing in the coming years.

This movement is the cal 101 which is off the shelf

 
 By: Mohannad (aka Riddler) : March 27th, 2024-10:01
Not particularly made for this watch And costs around 1000 chf So claiming that their margins are thin and might be losing is a bit of a stretch ...  

Yup, this movement is a Chronode movement made by Mojon's team.

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-17:55
I'm sure they didn't get the 1000 CHF version though - the options list on these movements go up significantly and quickly. It's worse than Porsche/Ferrari options pricing. The movement with the customization options costs much more than the base price. I... 

I’m lost in all these new brands coming up

 
 By: Soul_wolfin : March 27th, 2024-13:26
There are no soul or anything!.. There is some Wow effect on the dial(Kari)…but i won’t call it Ultra high, and what are the criterio for Ultra high end in todays world…It seems not too much effort. Sorry if it’s to negative, but i just miss the good old ... 

We all miss the Good old Days!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-17:57
That's the world we live in... Imagine just 100+ years ago, we were living in a two dimensional world. Humankind didn't really have airplanes, and we barely had tiny submarines that looked like big barrels. Now, we live in a 3 dimensional world, with that... 

My 2c

 
 By: JoshTheCanadian : March 27th, 2024-15:31
The Fleming is a fine looking watch. I wish the eponymous founder and his team the best of luck, and I look forward to seeing the next offering. A solid first entry that is not divisive - to me, it reminds me of the Biver watch. I am sure it looks lovely ... 

Love the "BUT"

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2024-17:42
There's always a BUT. Thank you for sharing your very objective thoughts! That Berneron Mirage is certainly a very special watch - so special that I've yet to see one in person. It is indeed a very special watch.

super movement!

 
 By: hl99 : March 27th, 2024-15:57

I'm not sure I like it

 
 By: andrea~ : March 27th, 2024-19:10
It's a good watch, of course, but it has problems that a 50k watch shouldn't have. First of all, the price is insanely high, secondly the design isn't in any way original. I am not a fan of the independent fad. Most of these new brands will be gone in 10 ... 

Good point!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 28th, 2024-04:08
Back then, watches were only for the wealthy. Any watch with any complexity couldn't normally be serviced easily - as a local clockmaker would not normally be able to do it. But if you lived in Paris, you'd be able to get it done - as Breguet had a worksh... 

Well, you can't really compare Breguet with most modern independents

 
 By: andrea~ : March 28th, 2024-10:12
Now we're living in an age of a flooded independent market. Most new brands are interchangeable. Breguet was a genius, not just any other independent

I would hope so!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 28th, 2024-17:40
I don't think servicing will be too bad neither. But I'm not an expert in this department. A watchmaker would probably want to get a "schematic" from Chronode (the manufacturer), which will have a big blueprint of the movement and will tell the watchmaker... 

I can see how the A-team is a good strategy, but there's a hitch

 
 By: cazalea : March 28th, 2024-18:32
I was involved in a similar project (if I may say so) in a completely different industry. My squad were the best in automotive information. We partnered with IBM for the hardware and service (this is before Dell or Apple). We chose NAPA Auto Parts for the... 

Here, there's only one man in charge...

 
 By: patrick_y : March 28th, 2024-21:16
You definitely described a classic problem. Here, there is definitely only one man in charge - Thomas Fleming. But, we do have Fleming's inexperience, naivete, and more to contend with. Don't know if he has a big ego - seems like a nice fella - but I don'... 

He seems to be that many here are overthinking this

 
 By: christianch : March 29th, 2024-20:49
When an affluent collector, endowed with a Stanford education and venture capital lineage, initiates a project of this nature, it is primarily for his own enjoyment and secondarily for those who appreciate it. Should it fail to resonate with others, it ha... 

Very True!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 31st, 2024-17:56
I didn't want to hold his Stanford education nor his lineage against him, but of course, this did enter my landscape of thoughts - I'm not naive to not consider this. And I too thought many in our group enjoy schadenfreude and criticism. But I was mainly ... 

You did well to post it!! 👏

 
 By: christianch : April 1st, 2024-11:00
But the reality is that for a watch brand to go stratospheric (and appreciate in value if we want to be cynical) is have either watchmaking heritage or, in this case, to be launched by a watchmaker. Of course that is no guarantee and there are exceptions ... 

Like you, I'm not sure I'm crazy about the case neither.

 
 By: patrick_y : April 1st, 2024-23:44
But sometimes these things look better in person and then I'm really humbled. Personal story: when I first saw the Patek Philippe Nautilus, I thought it looked strange, and I thought it had ears. "I'd rather have a Rolex Submariner than that weird Nautilu... 

Fascinating, perhaps an ego boost, perhaps true love for horology, perhaps non of the above…

 
 By: Tim Jackson : March 29th, 2024-23:13
Having been in this sphere for a few years, my compelling reason for supporting/buying an independent watchmakers work, has usually been twofold. One, the product had to appeal to me from a design standpoint, both technically and aesthetically. Two, the w... 

Thank you for sharing your very objective and measured thoughts Tim!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 31st, 2024-17:43
Always a pleasure to read you!

Rather have a Laurent Ferrier.

 
 By: jaspermccrea : April 4th, 2024-15:39
Bill Sanders's Lyrique looks like much better value, too, for a similar type of assembleur.