tristan.led
15
It is not the first time we cross path on a thread
And I have to admit I quite enjoy reading your thoughts.
One thing is sure, as I happen to make parts by hands, no one can do a pinion without a motor (you can use a steam engine if you want, but still). So IMHO any watchmaker out here that makes his parts on a Schaublin (mine has 2 motors) Aciera, Hauser, Sixis etc, it's all handmade.
As I've said before, what everyone needs, is honesty, and transparency. I decided to become a watchmaker, I followed the path I followed because I honestly belived Dufour made his watches by hand, that Voutilainen did as well (For Smith, I already knew he had a cnc mill back then). Imagine my shock after investing years and money into hard to find machines only to realize that ANY watch made in series of more than 5ish HAVE TO be made on a CNC. It's simple to understand, there's no interchangeability with hand made parts and machines on a large scale.
There's no shame in using CNC mills, lathes, EDM, Laser etc. All needs to be out in the open. I have a huge respect for the level of finishing of a Dufour, although the parts are CNC made.
CNC ensures accuracy, more reliability for the customer etc.
Micro brands launched on Kickstarter have used this angle before "lets be honest and say "yes, our parts come from Asia, but we offer something different and that's why you shoud buy from us"". I hope more Indies will follow that route as well.
In my opinion, as a maker, I want to believe there's a middle and that one can be happy with something made by hand and by CNC as well.
For example, I make the bridges, wheels, mainplate, screws, pins, parts of the case (bezel, lugs, middle case but not the case back nor the buckle).
Pinions and escapement come from an ebauche, and dial indexes and hands are either lazer or EDM made Custom but outsourced then.
So as one could indeed easily say "Yes but the strap is outsourced" "The gear cutter used have been made by Louis Belet and not X watchmaker" or "He used a DRO on a Hauser" lets all agree to recognize the good in the products. Kikuno is a genius for how he makes is watches, Dufour is a genius in the finishing. Not one has to be better than the other, they both are independent, both are very skilled, their products are different, and I hope their customers are happy with the manufacturing processes.
More posts:
A Time For Transparency
For quite some time I have been working on a list of descriptions that would prove helpful in defining what "Hand Made" and other such phrases truly mean to both the collector and the independent maker. Recently Independent watchmaker, Kilian Leschnik in ...
Very interesting and well done
It is true that it is a grey zone with some have the temptation to play with sometimes by letting the consumer think he is in one category while he is in fact in another one. However another question that can be raised is the following : is it better or w...
IMHO
And looking at where the original insta post comes from, I belive it was not targeted for "Brands" but rather for "watchmakers" (Cramain, Dufour, Coyon, AdC etc). I guess this was intended to shed some light on what is "handmade" and what is not. A lot of...
Transparency
Interesting post. Example: Omega’s co-axial is definitely in-house. ETA is Èbauche. Sellita is Èbauche. Handmade independent must make a watch pure by hand. Like Roger Smith and his watch makers do. An independent which use a CNC machine to laser cut crea...
By that definition...
Roger Smith no longer makes handmade watches. He uses (and has in his shop) CNC milling machines and CNC lathes which he uses not only for prototyping but also production parts. He started handmade but it seems for the sake of scaling, this path has been ...
Hand made
The different approach of how something made. The example of Roger Smith, for me it is hand made. For an other watch enthusiast, lover, fan, etc it could it not hand made. So what do a craftsman write on a dial? Hand made, Swiss made, Made in England, Han...
Well...
Anyone can produce however they want to and there are many approaches. The issue is the transparency because sure anyone can write anything on a dial and there is no law against it (although Swiss Made is regulated) but it’s a problem because of the very ...
Indeed interesting!
Thanks for sharing and let's hope that the terminology of "handmade" get a truly transparent meaning.
Transparency is really the key issue here
As a collector, I personally have no qualms about watchmakers using CNC machines. This technology has allowed watchmakers to realize previously unrealizable dreams. I do have an issue with transparency, which is why I would ask Voutilainen to remove the d...
A watch is such a complex item that these brief terms are not helpful
I’ll bet We can’t narrow down hand made in less than 1000 words. It’s splitting hairs. For example, my drill and lathe are operated by a foot pedal. Are the components I drill and turn “hand made”? Does the box have to be hand-made? Does the booklet have ...
Nice try...
To derail the discussion into ridiculous spheres. It’s absolutely not difficult to determine in a few words what handmade means IF you are following common sense and not trying to ridicule the issue. Simple ask yourself: Is the person involved in every st...
It is not the first time we cross path on a thread
And I have to admit I quite enjoy reading your thoughts. One thing is sure, as I happen to make parts by hands, no one can do a pinion without a motor (you can use a steam engine if you want, but still). So IMHO any watchmaker out here that makes his part...
Not sure if this is the right time....
to sort independent watchmakers by terminology while the industrial brands are representing 99% of the watch production. While I fully underline the need for transparancy and well understand what the young master would like to express, it just reflects hi...
Reading helps...
It’s stated on the first picture that it’s a terminology concept for independent watchmaking. It’s not meant to cluster all of watchmaking but to approach the issue of lacking transparency in INDEPENDENT WATCHMAKING. And he stated it’s a concept plus from...
progress is highly welcome and supported.....
but sorry, IMHO this concept is not progressive. The discussion itself is old and I witnessed quite some independent makers removing such phrases recently from their communication because of pressure on social media (coming from the same source?). So ther...
Like I said before...
I know I should not be engaging in trolling questions like this. I’m sure common sense is a resources that should be used in any discussion. Also you’re saying progress is welcomed and that the discussion is old but at the same time tackling these „old“ i...
At least try to read...please.
It’s always okay to use CNC or EDM or whatever. But disclose it openly. Otherwise labels and words loose all meaning. And regarding your comment on CAD: The wording is hand MADE. So I would understand it as it is stated on conscript as well. Execute the s...
Thanks for your time!
I belong to a generation who been tought to do technical drawings by hand, sketching with pencil and drawing with ink on transparent paper. You are right about CAD can't design or calculate but in my understanding the technical drawing is a key part.
Transparancy is not only a duty for producers...
it should be as well by the consumer. Oldfashioned is the idea trying to "regulate" things (something very typical german), progressive IMHO is to leave the decision with the client. There is growing awareness. Again, it has never been easier to get in co...
