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What a post! And the responses cross all borders, just
like the Celestial.
I view these things differently than most. The advent of sapphire backs has opened the door for a lot of discussion along with criticism with respect to finish, size of movements being used and modular additions.
I have owned a 3861 for almost 30+ years now and have found it to be a superlative movement. Had a 3940 with the same experience. Is it good? Without question. Its performance is everything I would expect from a Patek. I haven't owned every reference with the modular add-ons to be able to speak with any authority, but I would expect the same performance with each reference regardless of the level of complication.
I am not a movement designer nor an expert at critiquing movements other than observing the obvious, quality of finish. So, I don't feel I can carry on a knowledgeable, in depth conversation with other folks here regarding the fine details of movement design.
But, I think it's better to have these references available whether using modular additions than not to have them at all. I am sure the cost of designing and tooling up for new movement designs is quite expensive and might be prohibitive without the modular additions.
Collectors are collectors, there are some who embrace the watch for what it is and what it does, there are others who will purchase it because it's a Patek and they can easily afford it, while others have reasons for not purchasing it. For me, if I'm taken with a specific reference (cosmetically and functions), then I am going to find a way to get it and I leave the technical stuff to Patek. That's why we all pay the big bucks to them.
I think if any of us were in their position, we too, would attempt to maximize every resource available to yield the highest margin of profit. And Patek does this very well.
So, I like the 240. I don't like all the references based on the 240, but I'm glad it's here.
Available on the marketplace
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PP Caliber 240 – a thin base movement … (Good or bad?)
born in 1977 (!) and still one of the center pieces/workhorses in the current collection. Good or bad? Some thoughts : - Reliability? Proofed. - Beautiful in the (classical) quality of workmanship and finish? Proofed. - A good base for adding complicati...
I have no problem with the Cal 240 or the latest version, the 260.
It is what I consider to be a great movement. Now, what I am not pleased with is to see the same movement ( or almost ) on a simple Calatrava AND in a watch like the Celestial. Ir is not a question of size, well, not mainly, it is just the perception I ha...
Why am I not surprised ...
to get that specific reply from you my friend? We all read about it before :-) Celestial - what in specific are you missing in that case or does it just have to be the latest and fanciest kid on the block? Oliver
It is rather simple.
Why I didn't get, and won't get a Langematik Pepetual? Because it houses the same Cal than the Langematik Anniversary, with a module. Why won't I get a patek QP? For the same reason: I already own a 5110P, so the same Cal 240 with a different module. Why ...
I beg to differ Nico...
I have no problem with a 240 based QP, but would have a problem if the module is a chronograph module ( goes against past PP chronograph philosophy ). To the best of my knowledge, the 240 was designed with complications in mind. I also prefer the pusher f...
Sorry for not having been clear enough...
I have no problem with the Cal 240 as a base for a QP. I agree that it is a fine offer from Patek. BUT I can't have two Patek watches sharing the same calibre, the noly difference being the module. ( WT, and QP ). I already have the WT, so I can't, due to...
Rules rules rules.... I thought they were made to be broken?!
... Especially the ones you put to yourself. You are auto limiting yourself under the flag that you are a disciplined good boy. You should know better than anyone, the hell with all that Nicolas, or you go bold and as far as your desires will take you, or...
I would not blame anyone for breaking the rules...
I would not have any clients, hence no funds for my watch projects. ;) I have on problem to own several Rolex using the same calibre ( or almost ). I make a big difference between Rolex and Patek, though. In terms of complications, finishings, most of all...
Nicolas i'm going to have to unleash my lawyer...
... on you for keep on beating that dead horse :)) We agree, the celestial have something hard to swallow
hahahaha.... Actually horse meat is one of the best!
no fat, full of iron, i wonder why all the fuse they did about it in France.
As I disagree to some extent, I may explain
Hi Nicolas, You know that I disagree with you on that point, but not totally. No it is not the Swiss tradition to have a specific calibre for each watch. It is purely a Lange thing AFAIK and it makes sense on a marketing side, but not on a technical or in...
Interesting...
... the celestial is crossing borders. I'm starting to like it more and more with this conversation :) You got a very good point.
Goo'day to you Dje. I read with great interest anything you write...
with regard to this great watch manufactory house, Patek Philippe. However, in your reply today I find two important points missing. Firstly, you mention correctly that AP and VC have, or still use a JLC base caliber but somehow forget to mention that Pat...
I'm not writing about calibre 920, 1120, 2120
Hi, The calibre I mention is the one based on the JLC 889/899, a calibre that was never used by Patek Philippe. Regarding calibre 920, it was never used in a JLC watch, so no possible comparison. best Dje
And by the way...
Hi, Yes I've had in the last 20 years many calibres 1120 and 2120 in hand, be they in AP RO Jumbo, RO perpetual skeleton, Jules Audemars simple watch or EOT PC, or older watches, or in many VCs like Saltarello, Mercator, Audubon, perpetual calendars, espe...
Ok then Dje, then you agree that part of your statement was....
Incorrect! We leave it a that. Cheers. Francois
I see we make a similar statement
Hi Dje, We seem to have both noticed the anling finishing and the 240 presence on a wide price scale potential issues. Even if I compeltly understand your point of view, may I just mention that when you write having many calibers for nearly each watch and...
I hear you, Jerome.
Even Lange doesn't develop one movement per watch, if you take the example of the Langematik movement, which you find in the simple " Langematik " as well as in the Wempe LE ( Power Reserve indicator ) and in the Langematik Perpetual ( QP module ). But I ...
Yes and no
Hi Nicolas, sorry for your tea! The reference 5100 had a specific calibre, but was limited at 3000 pieces if I remember well, so not a small series. That was probably enough to develop and justify a specific calibre (that was eventually possibly partially...
I think you need to try it?
As I said before: I hear your argument, but I don't agree. The difference between the most complicated Patek Automatic Minute Repeater and the least expensive Minute Repeater is MANY hundreds of thousands of dollars. The fact that they both employ the sam...
I trust you.
However, I have one problem with the watch: I do not have it! Best, Kari
I have a love affair with 240
and mostly it is because of three reasons: - the movement is so incredibly slim taking into account that it's an automatic movement - being an automatic is handy but thanks to the micro rotor, the movement looks nearly as interesting as a manual one - rel...
240 Caliber started my love for Patek Philippe
The thin 240 caliber with its micro-rotor started my love for Patek Philippe over a decade ago. 1. It was the first micro-rotored movement from a large Swiss watch company that I noticed (Piaget actually came up with the very first micro-rotored watch mov...
Universal Geneve was using the first micro rotor...
... if I am not wrong. Best Moritz
Learned something new!
Just found the right source and read the article about "micro rotors". Many thanks for that Oliver! These are the tidbits a watch fan is craving for. Best Moritz
I usually enjoy debating with Nicolas...
... but on that specific point, i almost agree with him...! About the celestial, its such a majestic and fantastic piece, so highly priced, AND with big case for a Patek... 43mm ( not 42mm as mentioned in the post ) that i really don't understand why pate...
Realism and Economics are the opposite words of Luxury and Excellence.
Am I romantic too much? ;) Thanks for the correction on the diameter of the Celestial ( 43 mm ) , you are absolutely right. Best, Nicolas.
Now all that being said... You've woke up my urge to get the celestial :)
The hell with the 200k euro, in the end, its just money... Ain't i too Romantic as well?
cal 240
I like 240 for the following reasons: 240 is so far, based on my personal experience, the most reliable Patek's automatic movement (among 315, 330, 324, 240). Winding efficiency is very good. (even many claim that 240 is due to the size of rotor inefficie...
I think it's fine
That's not the only concern about Caliber 240. There are even more widely used movements such as IWC Caliber 5000, or GO , and etc. but they are all considered very fine movements. Especially Zenith El Primero, which consists almost 70 percent of whole co...
Good.
It's my 1st Patek so sentimental value wise is already a winner. Wasn't aware of the cal. 260. I would love to know more about it. Regard Tyler ...
Same here. This was my first Patek.
And it is quite logical, as the World Time was the watch from Patek I desired the most! Best, Nicolas
240 is a fine movement, but
it is rather disappointing to see it across the board in so many watches. While each watch with the 240 has its own merits, it becomes a bit boring. New watch should equal new movement in an ideal world, though this is a more difficult economic reality. (...
"disappointing" or just ...
traditional Swiss? Mr. Stern (sen.) said in an interview some years ago: "The best proof of the excellent suitability of Caliber 240 is the fact that we haven’t needed to make any fundamental changes in it since its launch." "New watch should equal new mo...
No problem with size, but with finishing and overuse ...
Hi Oliver, As you know I've had my 5712 for nearly a year now. I payed attention to this size issue when buying mine and I still do when I look at a watch in a store. Indeed it is something I regret when it is too small : the work concerning decoration is...
Very nice and interesting picture Mark. There is a lot of.....
food for thought in this thread. I'll eat first to give energy to my thoughts. Cheers. Francois
Bon appétit !
And I'll read your thoughts with great interest François :) Cheers, Mark
Mark, if i may, you are being too severe here...
... about the finishing of the bridges, and the vertical edges. The parts of the movement are laser cut, and man's hand intervene later to finish those parts. Now you will not find on your nautilus the level of finishing that you will on a 5950A let's say...
5950A let's say! Just like that Fricks, let's say??.....
A 5950A he says, just like that? .....are we becoming blase Fricks? If you are just let me know, I look after it very gooooood, with love and tender attention, I promise! :):):): Cheers. Francois
I agree Fricks,
I love that watch too and as Oliver's post concerned the 240 caliber I was only focusing the movement. But as you said, the bracelet, the case and, last but not least, the dial are absolutely great. That's why I bought this fantastic watch, and I love it,...
"the level of finishing that you will on a 5950A"
If there would be any Nautilus with that kind of finishing and attention to the detail, the price would be ridiculous. The movement inside the 5950 and lots of other details on that specific watch shown, are to die for and I could get lost just looking at...
Unfortunately not ...
as I was not allowed to take pictures when I saw it the last time. But it still "burns" in my head and not only the movement ... Have to work on that, at least on the pictures :-) Oliver
good to be precise...
... work on the pics :) I will try to find someone who is around geneva, still the best place to have a chance to find such piece is in their salons there
"the finishing quality of the bridges' polished angles"
Mark I agree with you in general, even when it is still above industry standard. People like you and me expect 100% or even more ... :-) But if we would always get what we ask for we couldn´t afford them anymore - probably :-) Once I had the idea to go fo...
You spot it right
As you said Oliver maybe I forget what I'm waiting for compared to the production capacity and the overall demand of these watches. I was a bit unfair there. I took back the 5712 from the safe since friday and I must say this is way above the average fini...
angle finish
Dear Mark, I am fully with you on the fact that most Patek movements can be improved in terms of angle finish. I compared 240, 315, 324, 28-20 (5100 mvmt), 27-70 (Lemania based chrono), CH 29-535 (5170), R TO 27 (3939) and R 27 (5078). In general, my find...
Angle finishing
Some more to share. In addition: - It's much more difficult to finish (angle part) the bridges on 240 because they are very thin and (relatively) big. The improper (or say over) angling could cause shape change of the bridges. - Lange's German silver base...
Very interesting input
Hi Grisar, Thank you very much for your 2 replies, it's the kind of tangible elements I like as we need to remain objective and fair. Dje also mentioned those 3 levels of finishing and I'm glad to see that you confirm this observation. I found very intere...
I'm of two minds
I do agree that it would be preferable to have a movement purpose-built for each reference, no modules, etc. But then you have the 5970 and its kin having the same movement as a cheap Omega... Doesn't make them less desirable in my view. I confess I am in...
It is very, very good for 2 years ... than not bad ... and than: loving it is the reason
Fom my experiences: fresh from the service it keeps + 1,5 sec a day time, which is amazing like a grande comp for an ultra thin movement with a beat ratio of 21.600 only and a small balance! If you waer it daily for 2 years it starts to gain more and more...
What a post! And the responses cross all borders, just
like the Celestial. I view these things differently than most. The advent of sapphire backs has opened the door for a lot of discussion along with criticism with respect to finish, size of movements being used and modular additions. I have owned a 3861 fo...
What a superb thread.........
With excellent pros & cons. I have enjoyed the crossing of swords., but without any lost of blood. Personally, I am not qualified enough to make a recommendation one way or the other. But suffice to say that the 240 is an excellent and extremely relia...