ThomasM
[PuristS]
14331
Marcus, I agree...
Hi, Marcus,
Hopefully twenty minutes of typing won't go "up in smoke" this time.
Thanks for the "counterpoint" to Bernard's iconoclasm - internet communities tend to love to cheer "new society" and embrace technology and the shifting of the socio-econo-political tectonic plates. It is never quite "so simple" and too easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Bernard, it is always refreshing to read your words, and I applaud your passion to expound and share your points of view.
Let's not forget that mechanical timepieces are essentially obsolete from a pure functionality standpoint (I hope readers don't take this statement too far and conclude the overly simplistic "accuracy is not important, I can tell the time from my cell phone" shorthand tossoff.) Thus, high horology is essentially left with two major modalities for its raison d'etre"
1. as a tableau for design, both mechanical and "purely aesthetic" - why else the new Chanel grand complication?!? Much of the BNB stuff (RIP)? MB&F's Horological Machines?
2. as a sort of "living museum" of how things USED to be done, a connection to the old sensual, touch and feel days (vs the virtual "only in your mind and in your computer decomposed into speeding electrons" days of today and tomorrow...)
Is it surprising, then, that some in the industry still cling to their old mindsets that the only points of view of any importance are the old guard, the royalty and aristocracy, who were the real customers of old? Bear in mind, money in "the old days" was really nothing, almost considered boorish; the newly rich were "tolerated" and "allowed" the privilege of "acquiring one of our treasures, previously reserved only for Royalty and the titled..."
And like latent racism or any other form of bigotry, those "old ways" of thinking still leave deep and widespread roots, and those roots, even if thought long severed and left to wither and die, sometimes sprouts a new shoot and pushes up through the merde that is too often spread so indiscriminately as unintentional fertilizer in the wonderful world of marketing and sales...
Cheers, gents.
TM
Some at Basel may feel telephone lines and typewriters are the FUTURE
One thing I felt about the Basel fair versus the SIHH...is that : My first impressions are that some Swiss do not understand the watch business. They know about old traditional watchmaking, but due to insecurity, and a sense of "superiority", or " condesc...
Thanks hugely Bernard...
... thank you, thank you, thank you for a wonderful 'stream of consciousness' report which offers some genuinely interesting and authoritative insights from 'behind the curtain'. (Unusually perhaps): we will have to agree to disagree about Arpa though! Ch...
I searched for the damned ARTYA watch you know!
I was there from the bloody day before the fair opened, and finally saw the booth 2 hours before I left. I bought the watch you see here....apparently this is the ONLY untreated (unshocked) version and with the prototype, simpler hands. But the model I lo...
"Arpa vision"...
.... isn't that an oxymoron? This is not intended to offend those who admire his body of work - watches made from the steel of the Titanic; watches with two tourbillons incapable of telling the time; now watches made of dino dung. Rather, it is intended t...
I like it.
in all its rough form. Let me know if you get board with it. I agree with many of your thoughts. I have made similiar comments as I am weary of remakes by many brands. So many brands are looking backwards instead of forward- although in the case of Zenith...
Hi Bernard
Maybe post of the year !! Certainly seems the Swiss don't understand many markets at the moment, not only with product, but also price. I'm in the UK and pretty much every time you pass by a watch window the prices have gone up. Okay, Sterling isn't doing...
Is that the famed sh*t watch?
If it is, I can;t wait to tell the owner that's a piece of sh*t you;re wearing...LOL. While I obviously do not have the extensive experience and knowledge you do, I do like your "Real McCoy from the 70s" reference. I was just telling a mutual friend that ...
I ask myself..who builds MORE replicas? Legal ones. Archives? Or copies.
What are replicas? When we make them with a copyright? Is that why we spend money, or yours rather, in resurecting a company? Why do companies "need" resurection? Why not rebuild..if they are alive....or start a new one (if dead). Archives? And that we ca...
Is this the famed sh*t watch
Realized I posted this under the wrong post... sorry If it is, I can;t wait to tell the owner that's a piece of sh*t you;re wearing...LOL. While I obviously do not have the extensive experience and knowledge you do, I do like your "Real McCoy from the 70s...
PRECISELY the sharp point of observation..one component fabric of design is faecal
The faecal or coprophite (erm..corporation..corprophite?) wristwatch is a MUST buy....I can break into giggles of insanity. I have 5 witnessess , of which 2 are from Revo USSR, that I bought this watch. This one...is an untreated..meaning it has not gone ...
Interesting piece Bernard
I am looking forward to seeing it on your wrist. It really looks cool to me.
Thanks for posting that passionate reality check
I think the old money is what keeps much of that tradition alive, and I'm not sure it's all a bad thing, except when it stifles thinking outside the box and innovation. The world market will dictate what sells and what doesn't.
A Big Hug
If you were in front of me, I would envelop you in a huge hug for amusing me, educating me and having the fortitude to always speak your mind. Bravo, Bernard!
Let's meet in twenty years from now on ...
... and look which brand still exixts then: Patek or the Dino sh*t watch. Or RM, MBF, if you prefer. If survival is the main indication for correct market evaluation, the "old men's money" companies seem not to perform too badly ... Anyway, however, I agr...
Marcus, I agree...
Hi, Marcus, Hopefully twenty minutes of typing won't go "up in smoke" this time. Thanks for the "counterpoint" to Bernard's iconoclasm - internet communities tend to love to cheer "new society" and embrace technology and the shifting of the socio-econo-po...
I mean no malice. This post is meant to inspire some thoughts.
From both industry, designers, customers and mainly people who buy something of BOTH relevance and beauty (ugliness is part of the same coin). Thanks Thomas for understanding. Your friend, Bernard This message has been edited by bernard cheong on 2010-03-...
Survivability of a company
Is more a function of its business model (amongst many other things) and while I see what you’re saying and it’s very helpful from a servicing point of view if companies are still around in 20 years, I’m just wondering from a collectors’ point of view, is...
You are right, but this is an entirely different question ....
... Bernard's rant I replied to was a dismissal of certain company strategies as completely out of time and wrong. I replied from a point of view of the companies, that long-term success might exist without hanging on the lips of the trendy people. From a...
Damn, Thomas, you read in my mind...
I am preparing something about the PP 5070, and I'm thiking veeeery loudly about that question... Best, Nicolas
Won;t this question inevitably
go back to the conclusions of "different strokes for different folks " and "respect for others' choice" given there can never (from what I read) be one consistent definition of a collector if indeed a right definition exists in the first place?
Simply fill in: "Thomas" ;-)
I knew that the term "collector" would stir some movement. For the context of the original post, it might have been better for me to use the term "consumer", or "customer", or "watch buyer interested in the development of horology as a whole". Regards, Ma...
I was told of this and I hope it materializes. This will
be a major boost for the indies.
aw crap.
Hi, Bernard, That was NOT a play on the Artya watch thing... I just wrote 500 words ripping the generally haughty and arrogant culture that has become VC (with all due respect to friends like Alex Ghotbi and Christian Selmonyi) as well as commenting on th...
All it needs is a date indicator...
and a chronograph function, EOT, moonphase/age of moon cycle, GMT indicator, and reserve de marche (power reserve indicator, not a marching band), and, oh, a sonnerie of course, and I'd wear it. Coolness. Or crapness, whatever! Thanks, my LOL! for da day ...
Sonnerie..
it'll be interesting to know how this intersting choice of material conducts sound.....
A Surprise
I was quited surprised to read a post on this forum which issues such kind of criticism regarding the watch business. From my point of view this criticism seems very biased. There may well be an incredible amount of new money waiting to be earned by horol...
Some statistics...As
As I mentioned previously in another thread. China accounts for nearly a third of Swiss watch exports, and China + Singapore accounts for almost 40% (Source: Financial Times, March 19 2010). I do agree with Bernard that if there are still people in the wa...
I still buy Pateks today as well. It's condescension that's not healthy
of course, I do not expect all to share one view. Especially views coming from my quarter which is not a majority segment. Nonetheless...taking a point from "Plato's Repbulic" 380BC...beauty and ugliness are one because they are two. In Socrates argument ...
Insightful comments - brutal watch
Having had some personal fun at Artya's expense in recent posts, it's nice to see an attractive "brutal" watch. The rugged style plus simpliciity (especially the latter) gives it a certain attraction. But for my taste, that is about the limit in this styl...
Choices choices choices... and influence
Just a morsel to this thread, in the end if you have Horological education that Bernard does, and the pocket book to back that taste (to quote a 1950s AP ad line "if you have the taste and the means") you can actually act and react to the establishment, a...
Thanks for your post Bernard. I enjoyed reading your rant
but I kind of disagree with your later part about the Artya watch. A watch like this is what I consider to be a watch that gets lots of talk but will disappear off the face of the planet, such as the infamous "Pet Rock" craze. It is always interesting to ...
Great post, Bernard. To me, though, the heart of the market remains
people who are not European old money but see European old money as the epitome of class and aspire to partake of its atmosphere and values. While there are certainly other segments of the market, that part is large and has a lot of spending power. It wil...
The classic Buick Streamliner 1948
This classic Buick Streamliner is restored for the 2010 Concours. Its original construction took over two years, built with an aluminum body around a steel chassis. Not likely that you’ll never see it on the auction block. It's not the "Patek" or the top ...
Well, this car was ugly in 1948 and still is ugly today ....
... neither can I come to think of it as revolutionary. Streamlined cars were common after WW2, When looking for the revolutionary impulse, you should search ten years before: Best regards, Marcus...
Well, how long did Cord last for?
They might have been interesting looking, but they lasted what, 9 years? After making terribly unreliable cars, the company died with most of its inventory unsold. Now, they are admired and super-collectible. Isn't that a good analogy for what Bernard is ...
Kudos
Those are moving words,and am sure many here await your engaging intellectual posts.Actually,I like the Dino poo version watches,and similarly but sadly, the decline and inaccessibility of JD puts me back on the exotic material dial versions.
Bernard, you are right in the context of the extreme minority group of people
Majority watch lovers still die for Patek, Rolex, VC (predominantly pet brand for Chinese from mainland) and .... You may say they are not sophisticated, shallow, not educated, .................. but they are the recognised market forces that keeping the ...
I'm sceptical and I think that watch is damn ugly
but in fairness, I have been sceptical of your opinions before but you have frequently been right. I do agree with your thoughts on the culture of the industry though. Be that as it may, that Artya - all of them in fact - look terrible! - SJX
The ugliness, no inverted commas here, is the essence
For once..no one tried to make a plain ugly watch. He tried to cut it with a saw..hence the gashes, and used faecal (not in this one) material etc..certainly a very good statement piece. I don't admire its beauty. I admire its message, although I don't 10...
So you think...
my fabolous rolex leopard watch is ugly? At least it's adorned with magnificent and glorious precious stones along with wondrous movement inside. And most importantly, it ain't got no shit on the dial cen@maldives (working of course!)