Horological Meandering

One thing I felt about the Basel fair versus the SIHH...is that :

My first impressions are that some Swiss do not understand the watch business. They know about old traditional watchmaking, but due to insecurity, and a sense of "superiority", or "condescension - (the ever annoying trait of displaying arrogance by patronizing those considered inferior)", are not willing to learn, and are also closed to ideas and change.

I was engaged as an inhouse advisor for certain brands for 2010, and horrors...the dynamics of certain brands are terrible....they still feel as if the main market leaders and trendsetters are Swiss or European...as in "who buys" and "what the market wants". They use imperial, old monied customers as the "gauge"...and not carefully selected markers..such as age, income, race, society, employment, education, exposure to media...but simply quoting "old monied men".

I am OK with the Richard Branson, or Bill Gates types...or even Hollywood...or even sports stars...but old money from old families who have not driven a car in their lives, or engaged in any "challenges" that brought them or their families to a new level.?

It is like...They are insisting that the best way (TODAY) to archive, project and manipulate music is the LP vinyl record. This "used" to be of some debate when CD was first launched, but today..altho recognised for smoothness and its feel...it is NOT at all a realistic business to build on the vinyl records for a business!

THAT IS EXACTLY how I feel about Swiss watchmakers who open with "so and so" of the S***** family buys only Pateks and is 'so open minded" that he has now moved to, or is considering that Parmigiani is so stunning and revolutionary!

First, this 67 year old man is the 4th generation of inherited old money, probably never earned a $ of his own. May never have built a business on his own.

He may never even understand or use the communications that we use today..the cellphone to the web.

It's OK. I sort of had my day with vinyl LP records in 1980 to 1990, bought astounding truntables..etc..but, I am open to discussing the "possiblity" that digital music will one day be more often used in the industry as a standard and more. This was in 1980.

So...when I was in Basel...an elderly man who has worked for some time with vacheron, says that "so and so" of a german family will only respect Patek, and implies that the Asians are not a significant or knowledgeable part of the market...it burns me up.

Wake up Swiss old men...how many of you actually buy watches if you are earning wages of a doctor or lawyer or mid level executive? Do they wear MBF and AP and RM like Asians do? Or for that matter...the Russians, Japanese and Middle easterns?

It's not just the wake of products like the RM, the Rebellion T1000 or the MB&F machines...all SWISS and all aware of the markets.

Even Swiss "naughty boys" and edge artists whatever, are waking up to what's "in", what's working, and what makes people wanna be people.

Do I want MORE Pateks? Well...maybe if I wish to sell them in the future, but not if I am shopping for a watch that is "cool" or "just me".

Not if I want a watch that is reflective of the times we live in...electric, turmoil, wars, financial crisis, a President of the USA that one could not have imagined in 1960.

 Yes...maybe a watch that is brutal, cut, rough and shows changes at any unexpected level.

Round if I want to use it.

Inexpensive, I may not want GOLD if I cant afford it.

Distinctive, because I am, like many others..begining to loose identity in so many ways.

If one wants to conform...it almost will seem that there are many ways to simply inherit or better...buy the REAL McCoy from the1970s..why buy a new one for a premium..it's a replica of the original!

 My cheers to some...like the maker below Yvan Arpa, I believe, ...who make a round 3 handed eta 2892 watch, in steel...rough and destructured...it is the century or decade of 2010!

...wake up call for some brands!

This watch below may be rough, simple, unsophisticated....but it SPEAKS of what is going thru the fabric of our society!

It is relevant.

It is creative..it is 'art"...or Art ya?

This message has been edited by bernard cheong on 2010-03-24 03:03:06

... thank you, thank you, thank you for a wonderful 'stream of consciousness' report which offers some genuinely interesting and authoritative insights from 'behind the curtain'.

(Unusually perhaps): we will have to agree to disagree about Arpa though!

 

Cheers,

pplater.

I was there from the bloody day before the fair opened, and finally saw the booth 2 hours before I left.

I bought the watch you see here....apparently this is the ONLY untreated (unshocked) version and with the prototype, simpler hands.

But the model I loved best was the one with resistors and transistors meshed insde the dial...relevant, and cool!

I absolutely agree with Arpa 'vision"...or ranting rave against what he feels is an injustice and hypocrisy within the world of watchmaking when it comes to discussions of design, history (if of any relevance to the consumer), and the motives of making anything "in house".

See the shit..love the shit...but don't eat it. Just buy it..wear it...speak of it!

.... isn't that an oxymoron?

This is not intended to offend those who admire his body of work - watches made from the steel of the Titanic; watches with two tourbillons incapable of telling the time; now watches made of dino dung. Rather, it is intended to ask, genuinely - is he a 'prophet or a fool'? A neo-vanguardist or a cynical capitalist?

His designs evoke particular works of the past:

Rauschenberg's 'White paintings" -

 

 

Cage's 4'33" -

 

Duchamp's "Fountain" -

 

Is there a common theme, or a vast difference? Is Arpa's work controversially deconstructing an ageing and stuffy paradigm or is it controversy for the sake of controversy?

No doubt, it would be refreshing if watch houses - 'brands' -  would cease pandering to the mystical mega-wealthy patron: is this, though, the direction that they have to follow when they do?

 

Cheers,

pplater. 

in all its rough form.  Let me know if you get board with it.  I agree with many of your thoughts.  I have made similiar comments as I am weary of remakes by many brands.  So many brands are looking backwards instead of forward-  although in the case of Zenith this may be a good thing.lol  That may sound like a contradiction it really isnt.  It is possible to think forward and mess it up by sticking too much to one theme eg open dials or that star bezel.  Point is- Omega has gone back with the Polprof, Blancpain with the FF (even with the comical no radiation dial), Tudor with a few "new" models-- I could keep going.  So while you, Bernard, have issues with the classics I have the same issue with sports watches.  I say move along boys and girls, the future can be better than the past.

Maybe post of the year !!

Certainly seems the Swiss don't understand many markets at the moment, not only with product, but also price.  I'm in the UK and pretty much every time you pass by a watch window the prices have gone up.  Okay, Sterling isn't doing well but the brands don't seem to be prepared to give up some of the good times to keep customers.  Obviously fine for the 'old money' but if you have to earn your money the value of the items to me compared with what it costs is very definitely diminishing.

I certainly agree with your thought over the fact that many brands are just reproducing what they did in the 70's.  This in itself can be quite nice if you liked the originals and at least now you get it made with better materials, but the ideas seem to be stagnant.  One great pity of the financial fall out was the failure of BNB, which in some ways argues for the brands conservatism.  Even so they were responsible for some of the most outlandish watches going.  Losing these groups is a bit like loosing Haute Couture to the fashion business, not really wearable but the trickle down effect gives a push to the whole industry.

 

All the best

 

Tim

 

If it is, I can;t wait to tell the owner that's a piece of sh*t you;re wearing...LOL.

While I obviously do not have the extensive experience and knowledge you do, I do like your "Real McCoy from the 70s" reference.  I was just telling a mutual friend that many of the Basel pieces look like re-hashes to me and I'm only coming 2 years in this.  Maybe that's why I have some but not as strong feelings about the establishment seeing I haven't made my rounds yet.  I do like the 5170 why?  It just looks good to me but I ask if it had another brand on it, would it be all the rave?  I don't know.

Your points on MB&F and all the new swiss brands...yes, they are refershing when they push the envelope and test the establishment.  MB&F to me does this and I find myself being more drawn not just to mb&f but indies in general...

But for the sh*t watch... I'm with pp on this.. too much too soon for me LOL

What are replicas? When we make them with a copyright?

Is that why we spend money, or yours rather, in resurecting a company?

Why do companies "need" resurection? Why not rebuild..if they are alive....or start a new one (if dead).

Archives? And that we can say we "drew" inspiration from them?

Every 2 door car with 4 wheels was inspired by the very first one...

Realized I posted this under the wrong post... sorry

If it is, I can;t wait to tell the owner that's a piece of sh*t you;re wearing...LOL.

While I obviously do not have the extensive experience and knowledge you do, I do like your "Real McCoy from the 70s" reference.  I was just telling a mutual friend that many of the Basel pieces look like re-hashes to me and I'm only coming 2 years in this.  Maybe that's why I have some but not as strong feelings about the establishment seeing I haven't made my rounds yet.  I do like the 5170 why?  It just looks good to me but I ask if it had another brand on it, would it be all the rave?  I don't know.

Your points on MB&F and all the new swiss brands...yes, they are refershing when they push the envelope and test the establishment.  MB&F to me does this and I find myself being more drawn not just to mb&f but indies in general...

But for the sh*t watch... I'm with pp on this.. too much too soon for me LOL

As for the swiss gentleman with his less than complimentary Asia comment... this is a gentlemen's forum so I'll refrain.

The faecal or coprophite (erm..corporation..corprophite?) wristwatch is a MUST buy....I can break into giggles of insanity.

I have 5 witnessess , of which 2 are from Revo USSR, that I bought this watch.

This one...is an untreated..meaning it has not gone thru the 1,000,000 volts to discolor the steel (Panerai type case).

Actually the Artya cases are helluva cool and anti establishment. Bring on the 70s and the hippys and acid.

The dial "maybe" of moondust ( err...some denial of copyrights here). So sue me says Yvan Arpa...see how I like this guy?

 

I need to see that piece of sh*t the next time we meet LOL

I am looking forward to seeing it on your wrist. It really looks cool to me.

I think the old money is what keeps much of that tradition alive, and I'm not sure it's all a bad thing, except when it stifles thinking outside the box and innovation.
The world market will dictate what sells and what doesn't.

If you were in front of me, I would envelop you in a huge hug for amusing me, educating me and having the fortitude to always speak your mind. Bravo, Bernard!

... and look which brand still exixts then: Patek or the Dino sh*t watch. Or RM, MBF, if you prefer. If survival is the main indication for correct market evaluation, the "old men's money" companies seem not to perform too badly ...

Anyway, however, I agree with you in principle, if not in detail, since I think your statement is a bit too much tailored to yourself and your way of thinking. While Dr. Cheong might be responsible for a major share of some of the aforementioned brand's turnaround, I think it is too quick-shooting to deduct a whole company strategy from it.

With kind regards,
Marcus

Hi, Marcus,

Hopefully twenty minutes of typing won't go "up in smoke" this time.

Thanks for the "counterpoint" to Bernard's iconoclasm - internet communities tend to love to cheer "new society" and embrace technology and the shifting of the socio-econo-political tectonic plates.  It is never quite "so simple" and too easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Bernard, it is always refreshing to read your words, and I applaud your passion to expound and share your points of view.

Let's not forget that mechanical timepieces are essentially obsolete from a pure functionality standpoint (I hope readers don't take this statement too far and conclude the overly simplistic "accuracy is not important, I can tell the time from my cell phone" shorthand tossoff.) Thus, high horology is essentially left with two major modalities for its raison d'etre"

1. as a tableau for design, both mechanical and "purely aesthetic" - why else the new Chanel grand complication?!?  Much of the BNB stuff (RIP)? MB&F's Horological Machines?

2. as a sort of "living museum" of how things USED to be done, a connection to the old sensual, touch and feel days (vs the virtual "only in your mind and in your computer decomposed into speeding electrons" days of today and tomorrow...)

Is it surprising, then, that some in the industry still cling to their old mindsets that the only points of view of any importance are the old guard, the royalty and aristocracy, who were the real customers of old? Bear in mind, money in "the old days" was really nothing, almost considered boorish; the newly rich were "tolerated" and "allowed" the privilege of "acquiring one of our treasures, previously reserved only for Royalty and the titled..."

And like latent racism or any other form of bigotry, those "old ways" of thinking still leave deep and widespread roots, and those roots, even if thought long severed and left to wither and die, sometimes sprouts a new shoot and pushes up through the merde that is too often spread so indiscriminately as unintentional fertilizer in the wonderful world of marketing and sales...

Cheers, gents.

TM

 

From both industry, designers, customers and mainly people who buy something of BOTH relevance and beauty (ugliness is part of the same coin).

Thanks Thomas for understanding.

Your friend,

Bernard

This message has been edited by bernard cheong on 2010-03-25 10:58:59

Is more a function of its business model (amongst many other things) and while I see what you’re saying and it’s very helpful from a servicing point of view if companies are still around in 20 years, I’m just wondering from a collectors’ point of view, is that all that matters?

 

Now I realize I am not very qualified to speak on this being less than 2 years collecting watches and have but a very small collection so benefit of doubt is requested, but what of a company…. perhaps a startup…. and 1-2-3-whatever man show that perhaps pioneers some new innovation like Debethune or pushes the boundaries of conventional watch making like MB&F (to me at least) ….and even if they can’t find a worthy successor (which is common), would they be less of a company even though they are not around in 20 years despite their contributions?

 

And even if we look at more conventional watch making… what of the work from DuFour and Voultilainen?  And what of Pita and Halter?  Sure some of them may have movements outsourced to different extents but from what I read, the 5070 had a non-patek base for the longest time and see how many still rave about it.  And look at the work they have done.. so much more refreshing, daring and envelope pushing than the many calatravas or nautilus re-rehashes that seem to be.  From this point of view, it was nice for me to see the Zeitwerk from Lange not that I like it for the watch itself but that they offered something different and perhaps out of their comfort zone but yet, still maintaining strong Lange DNA... to me at least.

 

While I can see continuity as a challenge for them (and servicing issues for owners not insurmountable but inconvenient), I will still credit them (for what it is worth) for their contributions to horology even if their companies are not around in 20 years time.

 

Patek, for example, being around in 20 years is a level bet at best but have they, in recent years, advanced horology (the patek seal? J)as much as some of the names mentioned above or have they as part of their very sound business strategy, played it safe and re-hashed models as they seem to have done with many this year so as to pander to safe money?  Now this is not wrong from a pure business point of view, in fact correct but from a collectors’ point of view, will a company like MB&F, DuFour, Halter not being around in 20 years be any less significant that Patek?  I don’t know.. not for me.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I still like watches from Patek and the more established brands and find the 5170 nice for some reason as do I the HM3 but this fossilized watch.. a bit too much for me too soon but clearly not for someone like Bernard who has been around the block more than once and seems to have seen everything.  I have not.  Different strokes for different folks .. hmmm… I seem to have strayed some what from your point of company continuity  LOL.

... Bernard's rant I replied to was a dismissal of certain company strategies as completely out of time and wrong. I replied from a point of view of the companies, that long-term success might exist without hanging on the lips of the trendy people.

From a collector's point of view, however, you are of course right. For a collector, it is not important whether a manufacturer existed ten, fifty or a hundred years. It is the horological importance that counts (or better: SHOULD count).

Regards,
Marcus

?

I am preparing something about the PP 5070, and I'm thiking veeeery loudly about that question...



Best,

Nicolas

go back to the conclusions of "different strokes for different folks " and "respect for others' choice"  given there can never (from what I read) be one consistent definition of a collector if indeed a right definition exists in the first place?

I knew that the term "collector" would stir some movement. For the context of the original post, it might have been better for me to use the term "consumer", or "customer", or "watch buyer interested in the development of horology as a whole".

Regards,
Marcus

No message body

be a major boost for the indies.

Hi, Bernard,

That was NOT a play on the Artya watch thing...

I just wrote 500 words ripping the generally haughty and arrogant culture that has become VC (with all due respect to friends like Alex Ghotbi and Christian Selmonyi) as well as commenting on the "frozen in time" mentality of much of the high mech watch industry (explaining it, if not agreeing with it) but when I hit "insert" poof! it disappeared.

Oh, well, just as well...

:-(

Cheers, Bernard.

TM

and a chronograph function, EOT, moonphase/age of moon cycle, GMT indicator, and reserve de marche (power reserve indicator, not a marching band), and, oh, a sonnerie of course, and I'd wear it.  Coolness.  Or crapness, whatever!  Thanks, my LOL! for da day (LOL du jour, mes amis)...

=:^D

it'll be interesting to know how this intersting choice of material conducts sound.....