JMan
1019
imitation is the best form of flattery
It is a very interesting discussion about imitation/copy versus original design. Typical thought on this matter is that a copy is not as good as the original. But several people have posted excellent examples where the copy (Hublot) has become as iconic as the original (RO). Truly there are very things that are really original. A quote comes to mind "Confound the ancients! They have thought of all my good ideas". Why is Cvstos wrong in copying RM if they do it "originally" - meaning that they didnt steal the engineering but actually designed (or re-engineered) or whatever? As long as they can provide good performance, acceptable levels of finish and provide value to the customer, they have the right to do it. RM cant do much since what is being copied is not patented.
J.
In conversation with the founders of Cvstos, Sassoun Sirmakes and Antonio Terranova
Sassoun Sirmakes is frequently touted as the youngest CEO and founder of a watch brand. His father happens to be Vartan Sirmakes, co-owner of Franck Muller Watchland Group, which has annual revenues in the region of CHF400 million, according to industry s...
Cvstos and the idea of originality
Whatever the quality of Cvstos watches, the inescapable fact is the usually unfavourable comparison to Richard Mille. The similarity in design is obvious and perhaps blatant. The styling of Cvstos watches is controversial and the likeness is clear, but th...
Cvstos Yachting tourbillion
I like this one a lot. Yes the idea of a yachting limited edition reminds me of the Richard Mille Perini Navi but I like the execution of this Cvstos. The movement have wood inlaid into the baseplate, recalling the deck of a yacht. Although it is an odd c...
1, 2, 3????
How many different places is the word "tourbillon" written on that movement?? A
Cvstos Concept S Minute Repeater Tourbillon
The most notable by far is the Concept S minute repeater with tourbillion. Cvstos markets it as the world’s first water-resistant tourbillion, of up to 100 m no less. But that is as much a gimmick as a technical achievement. At first glance it is hard not...
Cvstos Concept S Flyback Chronograph and Automatic
The earlier Cvstos watches were not impressive, especially the entry level models. Not only were they aesthetically uninspiring, they were almost entirely based on various ETA calibres. The new Concept S watches are a big step up; all the watches depicted...
thank you , do you known who make new movement for CVSTOS?
Except the originality of design , I always evaluate CVSTOS is good in ratio of price/ finishing . I am impress with new chronographe one , I would like to see it by my eye in next trip to Malaysia . Other concern is black coating of case , It would be pa...
Cvstos - way to go!
A long way to go, that is. Jiaxian, thanks for this excellent and informative report. You make the valid point that watches such as the Ingenieur, the Nautilus and (more recently) the Big Bang all started life as "me-too" efforts, but gradually attained t...
Well the thing is...
The current products are good. From what I have seen, Cvstos doesn't need to improve its finishing or construction, rather it needs to maintain it. Of course it can be better, think Patek or Chopard LUC, but that is the nth degree of mass produced fine fi...
Cvstos doesn't need to improve its finishing or construction?
Hi SJX, With all due respect, I can't agree with your above statement. Let's put aside the issue as to whether Cvstos is similar (some says copycat) to RM or otherwise. When I held Cvstov, it gave me hefty feel but certainly not refined finishing. It has ...
ThomasM and Ling, we are referring to different watches...
When I wrote about Cvstos not needing to improve its finishing, I was referring mainly to its Concept S watches, which I understand will become the flagship collection. I do agree the most common Cvstos watches, ETA-equipped and thoroughly uninspired, are...
That's some great...
Hello SJX, That's some great pics if you took them with only the restaurant lighting! Very impressive. You must be taking lessons from AnthonyT as he does some amazing photos with the worst possible lighting conditions! Thanks for the scoop on Cvstos! Hap...
If you look VERY closely you can see the floral pattern on the white tablecloth
No shots of the dim sum though. Merry Christmas! - SJX
Recently we have seen quite a few new
watch companies that WERE able to start from scratch and develop a watch without other brands DNA. Urwerk, Vianney Halter, Hautelence, Greubel Forsey, Vianney Halter, Sarpaneva and Kari Voutilainen f.i.. Cystos had a shameless start and is not worth menti...
I'm intrigued by the level of disagreeableness, Geo . . .
. . . for even though it's certainly true that RM created perhaps the only truly original marque in recent memory, their level of originality in nominal aesthetic terms is not deeply profound - after all, there are scads of barrel-shaped designs littering...
Ironically, I'm again in the awkward position of ...
"apologizing" (in the classic greek sense) for positions which may or may not coincide with how I personally feel... Hi, Geo, Art, Geo, interestingly, you mention Vianney Halter. I wonder in what aspect you include Vianney here? (I love Vianney's work, an...
;-) . . . well, I did cover myself with the qualifying 'perhaps' . . .
. . . that preceded my statement, but you're right, Thomas, in assuming that I'd neglected both Urwerk and G-F in my thoughts when I was composing my reply. Urwerk is certainly a highly original marque at the same level as RM in my humble opinion, and G-F...
curious, Art...
can you be a little more specific about "genre?" With G-F, I'm pretty sure you mean "multi-axis tourbillon" (and if so, in fact, they are the first, even if not by brand; guess who was responsible for the original FM MAT?...) but I'm not sure what you mea...
Where Urwerk is concerned, Thomas, I would accord them the same . . .
. . . level of respect for originality as RM due to their uncanny parallels of fusing unique case designs and mechanical innovation to create entirely new genres; neither has a precedent when viewed in total, even though there are certainly critical aspec...
Thomas Prescher is a lone wolf and the public appearance of his pieces
in the MAT genre is pretty much contemporaneous with the others; he was indeed a pioneer in this field (which latterly included the beautiful gyrotourbillon, an Eric Coudrey conception and execution, if I'm not mistaken) Whether someone ORIGINALLY was the...
At least one progenitor!
I for one, still find it cool that after 500 years of watches, KV was the first one to come up with the idea of a decimal repeater -- would love to know of an earlier example, but I'm not aware of one. Then there's Volker and the hard linkage of seconds h...
I know the idea was being explored by at least one other company many years ago...
but since they didn't release it before Kari, they have asked me to keep the information non-public. I seem to recall a/some vintage/antique pocketwatch repeaters being "decimal" but don't specifically remember which. I'll bring the subject up again if an...
Thanks, Thomas
It's one of those elegant ideas that in retrospect seems so obvious that I'd be interested in learning more if future events permit. In the meanitme, all the best wishes for your health and happiness -- I'm sure that you know that many people, myself incl...
Didn't AP unveil a decimal repeater in the same year as Kari premiered his?
Or maybe a year later? I remember seeing it at Basel 2006 or 2005. - SJX
Regarding Kari's inspiration for the decimal repeater,
I actually asked him once "How did you feel when you first came up with the idea?" His reply, delivered with an impish grin, was "I had to go and make the watch... immediately! " Cheers Tony P
Are you familiar with...
The product known as the Starwheel from AP? If so, then why is Urwerk a totally original concept again? I think in this industry, there are no such things left as original concepts. There are either borrowed concepts, modified concepts, or re-hashed conce...
You have a point, and I'm surprised it took this long in the thread for someone
to voice this point of view (though I kept hinting around it... Actually, Whitestrat, even AP did not come up with the Starwheel concept; the wandering hours on radial spokes tracing the minutes has origins to pocket watches all the back to the early 19th...
Talking design
Hi Thomas, Art, In my original post I was only talking design, not mechanics/movements and I mentioned that line of companies, only because of their incredible start from scratch with original ideas, not borrowed from other established companies. (This ha...
Especially if your comments were about design, Geo...
There are some claims that the Antigua; even the Trio and Classique, were Jeff Barnes designs. If that were true, how would that change things, if at all? Cheers, TM
I love the Antiqua regardless of its origin
As I understand it, the watch was designed by Jeff Barnes. It was originally meant to be a partnership, Barnes design and Halter watchmaking. Interestingly Vianney - and I like him personally - has a history of terminated or unsuccessful business relation...
I appreciate your point, SJX, and I agree with you, insofar as
the explicit statement you are making. But it is a non-sequitor to my comment and question asked to Geo. Also, the original Halter-Barnes did see the light of day in addition to, and concurrent to/prior to the "premier" on Timezone. "premier" is such an o...
My comment was just an opinion
rather than in response to your discussion with Geo. I know the Halter-Barnes was shown elsewhere besides Timezone but it was on Timezone that I first saw the watch and truth be told, first time I saw it the Antiqua didn't strike me as particularly intere...
You don't want to understand what I said
Dear Thomas you don't understand me, or you don't want to. Barnes was in the beginning part of the company; it was Halter Barnes. Besides that many companies hire designers from outside to create something, that's way different than borrowing something, t...
Geo, understanding works and goes both ways...
Hi, Geo, I have no agenda, and I was simply asking for your point of view on a specific set of circumstances so I can try to understand your position better. Is it possible you are not understanding my point? Vianney didn't hire Jeff Barnes; Jeff Barnes d...
to be clear, Geo...
look, I'm not really interested in having this discussion "get heated" (I sense a little "heat" in your last reply) - for me, the issue in this sub-thread is origin of idea, and motivation. I see a clear difference between AP engaging Gerald Genta (and ot...
Three photos for Thomas to make myself more clear
Hi Thomas, Explaining is obviously not my strongest side, hope these pictures tell the story. Best, Geo...
I am well aware of those pictures, but Geo, you still don't address my question
and distinction on these points - those drawings were already H-B (Halter-Barnes) so have the DNA of both men, which subsequently was taken over by Vianney Halter, solo. So insofar as these examples, I have no issues and completely understand your point. ...
Thomas what was your question then ???
I think I have said it all. Vianney Halter surely qualifies to be in the line of companies that started with original designs, not copied from other companies. The company started as Halter Barnes after all, these guys were a team. I think everybody knows...
If I may...
What I understand Thomas to be saying is the difference between the examples. AP, Cartier et al hired Gerald Genta to design watches for them. Now they make Genta's designs under their own label but the public is fully aware Gerald Genta designed the watc...
design of VH and Kari
I read some information about design of VH and Kari http://www.timezone.com/library/tzints/tzints0017 Kari is similar with Urban Juergensen http://www.urbanjuergensen.com/e/wrist/wrist.html
Thanks for these links - there's one REALLY interesting quote from Jeff Barnes in there:
RP : I have seen your designs with the Vianney Halter name on them, was this planned? JB : He is using them without my permission. OK, this was an interview from 2000, and perhaps permissions have been negotiated and granted since then, or perhaps everyon...
There comes a point when...
One's point, such as it is, is just not worth the effort to make. Hi, Tony, My original question in this sub-thread, based on an admittedly subtle distinction, is clearly leading to more talking across each other than to each other. I'll "drop back and pu...
Not quite sure
...that I see the strong resemblance between KV and Jurgensen, but I must say that I like the designs of both quite a bit! Best, Gary G
"Real" inspiration
That is an even bigger can of worms TM. Genta designed the RO, Ingenieur, Nautilus and 222, the RO was launched first but is it truly the original? I don't know, but Genta could have well penned the Nautilus a few years before. Of course this is random sp...
Can of worms, that only gets squigglier when...
you throw out speculation that "speculates" with real world examples. Hi, SJX, I'm not sure this is a "fair" thing to throw out there into the world, sorta like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. If you have even an inkling of seriousness about the Naut...
Wow, Thomas
I say nothing, I'm just enjoying a lot your conversation with Geo and SJX, and all our other Purists Fellows... Really enjoyable, rich ,and captivating discussion, here. I'm really impressed, Thomas, and this makes me regret you live so far from France! W...
Mon plaisir, mon ami...
and hopefully, we can realize that dream for both of us soon, hopefully accompanied by a nice Chablis or Quart de Charmes (well, maybe not, too sweet...okay, certain vintages only...) with a nice overflowing Plat du Roi of seafood... ;-) I really miss the...
Significance and copycats
Hi Art, As I wrote in my original post, significance and copycats and not mutually exclusive. There are hordes of folk who will insist the Nautilus and Ingenieur are significant watches, although it can be argued that both are copycats of the Royal Oak. B...
Fully agreed, SJX, imitation doesn't preclude significance . . .
. . . and I have little doubt that Cvstos will emerge as a significant player in the marketplace; it's just that I have a high level of doubt that they will ever be considered as significant in historical terms, or more to the point, esteemed by aficionad...
what is it beyond its style?
If you take away the "superficial similarities", what are you left with? Looking at the cvstos beyond its stylistic similarities (or blatant knocking off- w/e you feel it should be described as), I dont see a particularly compelling watch. I dont know eno...
RM copy
I really don't understand most part of the discussion here... let me explain why... the first time i saw a Cvstos i immediately thought of Richard Mille. When i look at most Cvstos models this thought comes up again... so IMHO Cvstos just makes name and f...
If it has a case like an RM, a crown like an RM...
I with you on this. My vocabulary has improved but I still don't see an advancement in the discussion unless I missed it. I am heating the pop corn as I type this. Glad my mother in law gave me a thesaurus for Christmas. But from a horological layman with...
Ditto..
Wow.. your article sure generated a lotta comments.. Anyways.. just wanna wish ya a Happy New Year :o)