patrick_y
[PuristSPro Moderator]
33677
Fraud definitely occurs everywhere...
Auction houses are no exception. Anywhere there is trust, there is the potential to abuse that trust. Anywhere there are tons of money to be made, there are people looking to take advantage. Thus, one should always be careful in the watch world, car world, wine world, and art world. These are the places where one can be fooled very quickly.
This is sickening
I’m sure many of you are familiar with Perezcope, a gentleman who has a good eye for detecting fraudulent watches, especially those sold at auctions. Recently, Phillips has been the target of several of his investigations. I find it absolutely sickening t...
Not sure how fooled they are
I think there are many times when they know better but pretend not to know
Exactly. The only ones who are being fooled are the buyers.
Look at the story of the Unicorn. Bacs, the auctioneer, KNEW that the Unicorn was a frankenstein watch. He bloody KNEW!
One of the reasons i like indies so much is that there is less incentive or motivation to do stuff like this ....
cuz nobody knows about them and they are such a niche product. when somethings gets too big, it attracts scammers and such activities.
Right on, Cozmopak.
I do think it’s smartest to stay clear of the auction houses unless you can go in person and you feel very confident in your own ability to spot a problem.
Exactly...
The auction houses prey on the naïveté of the nouveau riche. As long as a steady supply of stupid customers with a lot of money who don't know anything keep on coming in... They'll have a way to sell their wares at top dollar.
They are not 'fooled' imho. They are very aware. Ho' dink is probably too embedded to tell the truth.
The auction houses know, yet there's no profit in telling the truth... and it's not the first time we've seen auction houses ignore such warnings. Would love to see Hodinkee, WatchTime, and many other publications do a full-on investigative report concern...
There may be profit in telling the truth
And that is by preserving reputation. After all, that’s at risk and once destroyed it takes much to restore.
One of the auction houses actually hired Jose to validate watches.
When he started point out the issues, they thanked him for the information but didn't disclose it. Jose left once he realized they weren't hiring him for his help, but as hush-money. The auction houses know VERY well what they are doing and selling.
Knowingly misrepresenting / selling faked goods without disclosure may constitute fraud...
....the country's police / legal should immediately (today) be notified about the auction and given evidence accordingly. If the auction house still sells it that could be cause for immediate arrest. Which country is this auction?
I’ve wondered this myself
Unfortunately, the way they word their contracts makes it very difficult if not impossible to pursue legal action
Who here writes for timepiece magazine(s), and can they get these facts published? Much harm could happen if international major news agencies go public....
Obviously, an email campaign to the auction house holds no value. My fear is in the very negative publicity this could cause to the reputation of the Swiss timepiece industry. Has Rolex been contacted?
And why would they do this? It's a lot of work on Rolex's end and if Phillips just ignore them, what recourse does Rolex have?
Phillips isn't making product with trademarks on it, not they selling anything that wasn't made by Rolex save, maybe, some pushers, which don't have a Rolex crown on them. There is little benefit for Rolex to pursue this and even less benefit for Phillips...
They’re not going into that story.
No matter how reputable these mags are-and I do think WatchTime is reputable-they are still aware of who is buttering their bread. Additionally they might not have the resources to do a deep dive into this issue and still cover all the other stories and i...
Sometimes the big auction houses aren't fooled...
We can't be too naive... Sometimes they aren't fooled. Sometimes they can even be a part of the team doing the fooling... For instance, a separate private company may own the watches where really an auction house employee is the secret shareholder... Lots...
Beyer is very clear with their answer here:"...ganz sicher nicht".
The auction house could have done the same and drop them an email. So easy 🤔
Hodinkee is a big proponent of the vintage market
They have a vested financial interest into keeping smoke screen / con job going, for their own bottom line. Especially now that they are partially owned by a conglomerate and have corporate masters to answer to. They’re all complicit in this unfortunately...
Hodinkee will never provide Bad Publicity...
All journalists are very hesitant to make a bad review. For instance, let's say I was loaned a bad watch. Even as a very truthful and honest journalist... I probably wouldn't flat out say how bad it would. I'd be very constructive in my criticism and try ...
One of the reason I tend to shy
away from preowned watches. Learned a lesson years ago on something besides a watch and said never again and I stick to that. Not saying every per-owned seller is questionable because there are some good ones on this forum and other places, Once bitten, t...
All watch sellers and auction houses are susceptible to selling a watch that falls short of what is represented to the buyer. Errors are almost an inevitability when humans are involved.
The difference between a reputable dealer/auction house and a disreputable one is the way they address an issue when it arises. The reputable ones step up and go out of their way to make things right with the buyer. If there's an issue that Phillips needs...
I am shocked! Shocked! That Gambling is going on here!
You're Winnings Sir! Oh, thank you very much! So good! So good!
True! What a lovely movie. One of the best of all time. Pity I've only seen it once.
Might need to rectify that mistake!
Kudos to José.
Last time that I posted on the Italian forum O&P a link to another José masterpiece my post was deleted without even notifying me. I cannot seem to be able to post links but if anyone is interesed just co to perezcope.com an look at the "Unicorn" ...
Thanks for bringing this to our attention
I find it shocking as well that reputable organizations do not check more into the authenticity of the products they offer for auction.
I am so glad Jose is getting some well deserved limelight.
Not many people know this but he started doing this several years agos on a/the Panerai forum. The community attacked and even banned him! He could prove everything he was claiming but group think and the mob mentality lynched him all the same. And that w...
What will change for Phillips now?
That something like this could happen I think is so strange.. I would expect when the seller has a 'in-house' watchmaker or even an outsourced one the issues such as a faulty dial and/or a frankenwatch will be adressed or at least mentioned when selling. ...
They’re happy to charge massive buyer’s premiums, but no due diligence
It took Jose a simple email to get a straight answer, straight from the source. Which tells you that Phillips did absolutely nothing in their course of checking it out. The auction houses are a shameful lot and Jose has caught a lot of pieces over the pas...
Fraud definitely occurs everywhere...
Auction houses are no exception. Anywhere there is trust, there is the potential to abuse that trust. Anywhere there are tons of money to be made, there are people looking to take advantage. Thus, one should always be careful in the watch world, car world...