cazalea
[Seiko Moderator]
20972
Been almost there and done almost that
My Answer to the Question - feather the throttle and pray, and if you don't have lots of seat time in your car, and don't know the road well, don't push so hard.
My pal was used to rally driving on the road but had a hot Austin-Healey 3000, a totally different driving experience to the Porsche.
Did the same again at Willow Springs, as passenger again, with the track instructor driving a student's Viper for the first time, again going over 100 mph and this time out into the surrounding desert.
And I've done it myself in a M-B 280 SL. Sheer stupidity and youth are my only excuses for my mishap, but missed the trees and ended up in a field with no damage, whew!
Adrenaline rush causes us to overdrive ourselves. Changing cars often also trips us up.
I watched an instructor at Riverside put a brand new BMW backwards into the wall in front of a group of students. Oops. It was his first drive in a car that had arrived that day, clear track, good weather, dry road. Too much energy in a car that was different from the 3-yr-old Bimmer he was used to.
And another friend on the same track roll his car - first time around - simple corner but carrying too much speed and to a wheel off.
Alas, no guarantees in Motorsport.
Cazalea
Something goes wrong in a turn...what do you do?
Ok, so it seems there are quite a few drivers and "hot shoes" here in our automotive forum. So what should the driver of the Porsche have done to 1. avoid the situation in the first place 2. to avoid the result if the entry was the same?
specifically for BDLJ (others welcome to comment) -
how would e-nannies have helped / saved that (or not?) Does it looked like they were switched off? Hard to be sure from the camera angle, but it looked to me like he ran out of room on the exit, right wheels went off track and threw off grip and balance; ...
Your question makes...
..it sound as though I'm an advocate of e-nannies! He was carrying some excellent corner speed and just ran a little wide at an unforgiving track. Just glad he walked away....though he will have to pay for that armco.
That wasn't my intent...
to make it sound like you're an advocate of e-nannies, but clearly you understand the technology and state of the art better than most of us and so might give some more clear understanding what e-nannies would and wouldn't, should and shouldn't, do in dis...
I know...
...I was just ribbing you :-) Bimbeano and dreamer cover it better than me - a little bit of understeer lock, clipped the dirt, rotated the car and had it pointing straight across the track.
Don't know if e-nannies would've helped...
in this case. But my guess is the driver turned them off. 911s are notoriously known for their unforgiveness on rear wheel spins. It was for the same reason that I chose not to get one when given a chance in the 80s. (Probably saved my life back then) Had...
that's what I'm trying to explore...
Hi, Sten, it's all too easy to take a position "e-nannies bad" or "e-nannies good" but many times, it's about the context and circumstances, and then how likely those circumstances are vis a vis "normal" situations. Kinda like generalizations in general.....
Sorry to gazump You Ben....
First of all, the ring is a very fast and unforgiving track. Looks like his entry speed was too fast and as a consequence ran wide. Hit the dirt , lost traction leading to oversteer slide. It s very possible ( for the majority of drivers ) when the slide ...
So if...
Hi, Dreamer, So in your opinion, if his right side didn't go off the pavement (clear from the dust kicked up) the unfortunate chain of events might never have happened? (I agree with your assessment, BTW, curious if there are any other ways to look at it?...
Good questions TM
It's possible if the right rear tyre did not hit the dirt that snap oversteer slide would not occur. I agree with you about the possibility of taking another line. That driver may not be familiar with that corner ( easy to do on the ring with so mannyl co...
Thanks for your comments, Dreamer. A few comments
"but also immensely satisfying to drive on a track with great direct and communicative steering ( especially the older non electric motor power assisted ones )" Porsche steering feel is superlative, in my limited experience. I wonder how difficult it woul...
Spot on. Dreamer8
Sadly, I've never driven an old aircooled Porsche at a track. If I did it'd have to be one with a lot of runoff!
From someone skilled...
In riding race bikes round a circuit and leaning at those ridiculous angles feathering the throttle and brakes to adjust your racing line, it would be easier and quicker for you to learn than most. Cheers, dreamer
Skilled?
Don't think so! It was fun, though. And I found out that I'm a better mechanic than rider :-)
Skilled?
Don't think so! It was fun, though. And I found out that I'm a better mechanic than rider :-)
I dont get your 2 options. Its clear though...
... listen to the engine sound, the driver just passed a gear before entering the curve. And he went in too early, a little. You want to understand, just watch the nose of the car when he is at the middle of the curve. The rule in porsche is, come in slow...
"Two options"
Hi, Fricks, "I don't get your 2 options" 1. avoid the situation in the first place could he have gone in slower? taken a different line? not shifted? 2. to avoid the result if the entry was the same? if he took the same line in, and ran off like he did, w...
The more i look at it, clearly the nose is not diving...
into the mid point of the curve, clear that is the mistake that had him deported. Oversteer happens when you accelerate, he is not. Thing is that you can feel that the front is kind of floating. How to correct a wrong trajectory a bit too fast? Mmmm... No...
but can't oversteer also happen when you brake (so called snap oversteer - also when
you lift abruptly (as opposed to just modulating the throttle) It looked pretty clear to me that there was very little front back load change issues - diving or lift or squatting - and mostly "just" loss of lateral traction balance (right side going off p...
yes interesting analysis and i agree...
... just if you take off your foot abruptly from the gaz, the car will understeer if you are in the curve and the weight is mostly on one side. Then again depends of the speed you are at and the length and degree of the curve. Funny, how all that is histo...
then again...
... feels like its lifting his foot of gaz that deported him. Anyway this guy got it wrong, but he could have gotten away with it. Looks like typical too fast enter and messi exit. Whats disturbing is that the corner is not strong at all, he should have b...
It's the Nurburgring...
I've done a whole 2 laps. In a slow hirecar. Lots of corners to learn. I watched it with no sound, so didn't hear a lift. But he just looked like he was used to the place, was trying, and messed it up. Maybe a big tight after passing the camera car on the...
Scary circuit ...
When GP races were run on the full circuit many fatal crashes occurred. We forget that often it is dry in sections and suddenly you get a damp section and totally wet in parts . At least you had 2 laps in a hire car. I took a very fast " taxi " . Paid for...
He could have tried to ...
... drive a bit slower :-) ... . As Ben and you Thomas explained, the problem was actually very bad luck ... his right wheel just came out 2 or 3 inch too far to the right, lost 30-40% grip the first one hundredthhthththt of a second, because of that he s...
yep, we saw the same things...
it is easy to forget, in all this discussion about max limits of tires, cars, suspensions, e-nannies, that the ultimate and usually lowest limit is that of the driver - skill and experience. Thanks, Bimb.
Been almost there and done almost that
My Answer to the Question - feather the throttle and pray, and if you don't have lots of seat time in your car, and don't know the road well, don't push so hard. Riding with a friend at a Silverstone track day in his dad's 1992 911, we got into a corner a...
Any pictures?
In these days of GoPros and action cams, it seems like it's almost expected there would be video documentation of such "adventures." But then, back in "those" days... Reading about instructors doing that really sends a chill...these are the guys doing hot...
Yes, I dug some up, what a painful exercise!
Here\'s that 911 at Silverstone, but my wife didn\'t get the "off track excursion". Back in my civilian clothes. On a less forgiving track, or so the tire marks would indicate Risky? By far the scariest thing I ever drove on a track! I\'ll do a separate t...