Automotive

Ok, so it seems there are quite a few drivers and "hot shoes" here in our automotive forum.

So what should the driver of the Porsche have done to

1. avoid the situation in the first place

2. to avoid the result if the entry was the same?

 

how would e-nannies have helped / saved that (or not?)

Does it looked like they were switched off?

Hard to be sure from the camera angle, but it looked to me like he ran out of room on the exit, right wheels went off track and threw off grip and balance; it all went quickly out of control from there.

What do you see?

This message has been edited by ThomasM on 2012-12-06 17:42:14

..it sound as though I'm an advocate of e-nannies!
He was carrying some excellent corner speed and just ran a little wide at an unforgiving track.

Just glad he walked away....though he will have to pay for that armco.

to make it sound like you're an advocate of e-nannies, but clearly you understand the technology and state of the art better than most of us and so might give some more clear understanding what e-nannies would and wouldn't, should and shouldn't, do in disaster situations like that.

I imagine he might have a pretty big deductible to pay on that GT3 as well...

...I was just ribbing you

Bimbeano and dreamer cover it better than me - a little bit of understeer lock, clipped the dirt, rotated the car and had it pointing straight across the track.

in this case. But my guess is the driver turned them off. 911s are notoriously known for their unforgiveness on rear wheel spins. It was for the same reason that I chose not to get one when given a chance in the 80s. (Probably saved my life back then) Had enough respect on the car to know my skill wasn't good enough to handle it.
I was nearly on the receiving end of the same situation couple years back on track driving a late model Carrera S.
Too fast into a double apex turn (which I am still pretty bad at,) tried to correct it and felt the rear sliding a little, but the e-nanny saved me that time and kept me from embarrassing myself in front of the other drivers.
So on the topics of the e-nannies, I'm all for cars to have them.
The only problem with that is the younger generations growing up with them won't have the respect and skill to really handle a car.

Hi, Sten,

it's all too easy to take a position "e-nannies bad" or "e-nannies good" but many times, it's about the context and circumstances, and then how likely those circumstances are vis a vis "normal" situations.

Kinda like generalizations in general...

Hats off to you to realize your limitations earlier in your life, too many people don't, for whatever reason (including ego!) and get in waaaaay over their heads.

It is interesting that you could clearly recognize your limit and could feel you going over it, with the e-nanny reeling you back in.

I completely agree with you about the generation(s) who don't know anything but cars with e-nannies; similar with so many other things (calculators vs abacus vs mental gymnastics; keyboards vs handwriting; auto cameras vs manual or semi manual; looking up something in a peer reviewed journal vs looking up on Wiki or search engines from possibly uninformed or misinformed sources.)

Thanks for your comments!

TM

First of all, the ring is a very fast and unforgiving track. Looks like his entry speed was too fast and as a consequence ran wide. Hit the dirt , lost traction leading to oversteer slide. It s very possible ( for the majority of drivers ) when the slide started to happen , one's natural instinct is to back off totally on the loud peddle accentuating the slide.

Hi, Dreamer,

So in your opinion, if his right side didn't go off the pavement (clear from the dust kicked up) the unfortunate chain of events might never have happened?

(I agree with your assessment, BTW, curious if there are any other ways to look at it?)

What if he had taken a different line?

If the car had not been a rear engine layout with rear mass accentuating the oversteer scenario? 

It's possible if the right rear tyre did not hit the dirt that snap oversteer slide would not occur. This message has been edited by dreamer8 on 2012-12-06 21:30:11 This message has been edited by dreamer8 on 2012-12-06 21:43:58

"but also immensely satisfying to drive on a track with great direct and communicative steering ( especially the older non electric motor power assisted ones )"

Porsche steering feel is superlative, in my limited experience. I wonder how difficult it would be to disconnect the electric power assist? or even the hydraulic power assist? and what that would feel like?

" and fine satisfying adjustment of your racing line by subtle

Sadly, I've never driven an old aircooled Porsche at a track. If I did it'd have to be one with a lot of runoff!

In riding race bikes round a circuit and leaning at those ridiculous angles feathering the throttle and brakes to adjust your racing line, it would be easier and quicker  for you to learn than most.

Don't think so! It was fun, though.
And I found out that I'm a better mechanic than rider

Don't think so! It was fun, though.
And I found out that I'm a better mechanic than rider

... listen to the engine sound, the driver just passed a gear before entering the curve. And he went in too early, a little. You want to understand, just watch the nose of the car when he is at the middle of the curve.

Hi, Fricks,

"I don't get your 2 options"

1. avoid the situation in the first place

could he have gone in slower?

taken a different line?

not shifted?

2. to avoid the result if the entry was the same?

 if he took the same line in, and ran off like he did, what could he have done to save the oversteer?

=============

 

into the mid point of the curve, clear that is the mistake that had him deported. Oversteer happens when you accelerate, he is not.

you lift abruptly (as opposed to just modulating the throttle)

It looked pretty clear to me that there was very little front back load change issues - diving or lift or squatting - and mostly "just" loss of lateral traction balance (right side going off pavement thereby losing grip on that side, indicated by the first dust cloud) and when he corrected to get back on the pavement, he couldn't handle the sudden change in traction characteristics and resulting change in direction / dynamics when all four "bit down" again.

Interesting discussion, better than I had hoped.

Always looking for different ways to look at something, or explore different solutions and possible outcomes.

Thanks!

... just if you take off your foot abruptly from the gaz, the car will understeer if you are in the curve and the weight is mostly on one side. Then again depends of the speed you are at and the length and degree of the curve.

... feels like its  lifting his foot of gaz that deported him. Anyway this guy got it wrong, but he could have gotten away with it.  Looks like typical too fast enter and messi exit.

I've done a whole 2 laps. In a slow hirecar. Lots of corners to learn.
I watched it with no sound, so didn't hear a lift. But he just looked like he was used to the place, was trying, and messed it up. Maybe a big tight after passing the camera car on the left. That's all. This message has been edited by BDLJ on 2012-12-07 02:32:04

When GP races were run on the full circuit many fatal crashes occurred. We forget that often it is dry in sections and suddenly you get  a damp section and totally wet in parts . 

... drive a bit slower ... .

it is easy to forget, in all this discussion about max limits of tires, cars, suspensions, e-nannies, that the ultimate and usually lowest limit is that of the driver - skill and experience.

Thanks, Bimb.

Riding with a friend at a Silverstone track day in his dad's 1992 911, we got into a corner a slight bit way too fast, he missed the edge coming out, lifted, and we went off bass ackwards at about 100 mph. Luckily it was into deep gravel so we only ruined the paint on the nose and sills instead of knocking them off like this guy did.

In these days of GoPros and action cams, it seems like it's almost expected there would be video documentation of such "adventures."

But then, back in "those" days...

Reading about instructors doing that really sends a chill...these are the guys doing hot laps...with us in the passenger seat...assuming they know what they're doing!

Thanks,

TM

Here's that 911 at Silverstone, but my wife didn't get the "off track excursion".



Back in my civilian clothes.



On a less forgiving track, or so the tire marks would indicate



Risky? By far the scariest thing I ever drove on a track!


I'll do a separate thread of some of my on and off track driving adventures.

Cazalea


This message has been edited by cazalea on 2012-12-08 14:43:45

Boy those were "younger days..."