whit
558
I can only confirm one incident when someone
purchased a 10 day tourbillon which was put up at auction very shortly afterwards. I was told that this person would never, ever get another special piece. And I had no reason to doubt that it happened being that this occurred 3-4 years ago when things were selling like popcorn. Amazingly, the watch sold for like $280,000 and cost him $240,000, so after commission and all other fees, he may have made a little something, but at the price of never having access to anything like this again.
The problem with special pieces arise from the demand from true collectors and those posing as collectors who speculate with the intent of making easy money. That is the reason on the application process. Personally, I took offense to the process because it was as if Patek did not trust me with the client to make that call, but clearly there were some who evidently could not be allowed to make that call. Even so, it seems that the application process still has some drawbacks because somehow these items surface now and again.
It was a dream to be in a position to actually sell a big piece, and I have one client who wanted one, could very well afford it, had bought watches across the board, and was a true collector meaning that he never sold anything he had previously purchased. He accumulated, never traded or sold watches to get others. The perfect candidate. When he told me he wanted a minute repeater after I gave him an estimate of its cost, I phoned in the order and was told that it just wasn't going to happen, that there were back orders until 2012 (this was in 2008 or late 2007) and by the way, this is when I first heard about the application process. For some dealers this may happen frequently, but this was the highlight of my career as a dealer...a very big deal and I had worked long and hard (27 years) to get to such a point only to have it dismissed in a matter of seconds. I guess you can understand my disappointment and feelings about this process, but unfortunately the folks who really get whacked are the real collectors who love the watch for what it is and what it represents.
5170's are leaking out
I see two of the new in-house chrono 5170's listed on eB** today. Anybody else hearing of them at the dealers? My AD told me he wasn't expecting one until spring. Anyone tempted? I want to see one in person and may wait to see what it looks like in the ot...
Good news if they are out
Hi, Good news if they are out, not as good if they are on sale already on the net! I can't wait to see it again, although it can be in my reaching range Cheers Dje
Pity.....
It is rather a pity that the first ones found their way not to collectors and persons that bought them for their enjoyment but in order to profit from them.... Sad.
Tragic
It's great that the watch is out, but it is a great shame that a true collector can only get them on eBay and by paying close to double price. Same with the 5131, they sell on eBay for 3-4 times the list price, while a regular collector can just forget ab...
Tragic is too light of a word. I would call it a "crying shame"
Of course all the secondary dealers will disagree and tell me its capitalism at its best. What is "tragic" is most of these secondary dealers don't even have in their possession the Pateks they are pushing. What is a "crying shame" is the AD's whom supply...
It's smart marketing on Patek's part.
Whatever their stated policies may be, I'm sure they love it when their watches go for a huge premium. I doubt it would happen if they seriously decided to prevent it.
Actually.....
they do try to prevent it.... For example if a 5131 is sold through Frey market, the original buyer is blacklisted... Cheers
Do you really and always trust your AD?
I don't. Trading is their business. Regards Ling
trust your AD?
I think you are refering to those grey market dealers and not those so called "real" ADs. Patek is pretty strict on this. From what I know their ADs have been told not to humor those grey market dealers. But then again there will always be some black shee...
yes they are...
deliveries started this past week in the US. I'm just surprised at the speed in which they landed on grey dealer's sites instead of collectors... don't the AD's know their customers? I assume that they allocate them to their best customers, since these wa...
Don't Ask - Don't Tell
I'd presume the grey market dealers go to the ADs posing as collectors. If they buy a lot of watches from the AD then what's his options? I'm sure he suspects they are grey market - but do they want to antagonize them? What if they really are just very we...
It's unfortunately a sad fact of life............
Whether the AD's know what will happen to the pieces that they sale or not, will not change a thing. There will always be someone prepared to buy and than immediately sell the piece for a profit. The only people who will ultimately loose out, are us the g...
how did you know?
how did you know that the 5170 is from the So Cal AD? My AD once had a piece flipped by a customer, and HSWA tracked it back within days to him... he had a bad day. He fired his customer. The 5131 that was flipped recently was tracked back to a FL guy, an...
How did Patek find out?
Does Patek have people that act as customers for the ebay auctions and request pictures of the warranty documents? Then trace info from those numbers. Of course it's probably easier to track a 5016 on the grey market than say 5970 (from a theoretical prod...
they do check
by looking at the merchandise to verify prior to a purchase (and checking out the numbers) without actually buying them, and occasionally purchasing the watches. Whichever way it is, as a collector, I don't want to be in the black list at all.....it's a s...
Totally agree
Patek will always figure it out! Being on that bad list can seriously affect one's collection goals. I have read some stories of collectors that were completely turned off to the brand after being put on the bad list. Although grey dealers are in the game...
On your last point.....
You probably have to buy some, and probably to the same amount that you spent to over pay the flipper..... But in this case you will have more watches to enjoy in your collection and on your wrist.... Cheers
Hopeful but doubtful
While I would certainly enjoy purchasing the other watches, I doubt purchasing a 5146p, 5980 and 5711 for good measure (100k+ sum) would allow me to acquire a 5131 at list.
it would take more than that...
for the one 5131 your AD gets every 2yrs (since approx only 12/yr, 1/mth to make) you need to be their BEST client and they need to really really really like you. That being said, be nice to your ADs, send them gifts! haha
Blacklist the US ?
I apologize to our US members, I know there are quite a few ... but .... When I look at places like Ebay , chrono24, and other sites where people can sell their watches I see that the hard to get pieces are moslty for sale via the US ( search for 5070P, 5...
Let"s all stop pretending
Let's all stop pretending. Frequently a regular shop will have financial issues and be overweight on stock that does not move. Then this junk will get pushed to a surplus dealer together with a few high value pieces which will get sold at +30 or +40, and ...
No offense, Bruno!
I would agree with your assessment on USA flippers. Perhaps it's because we are in such dire economic straits! I really think my AD is a solid guy and wouldn't knowingly particiapte in something like this. It would seem to me that at some point an end-buy...
But - where did they come from?
But we only know where they are being sold - not where they came from. So, it's just an indication that the supply/demand imbalance is greater here. For all we know, these pieces came from Asia - where I've heard Patek is allocating a greater percentage o...
Very good point!
I heard from the guy I purchased my 5970P from that many of them were coming to the USA via Asia. Is this then a way to maintain a market equilibrium? If Patek doesn't allocate according to market demands, should AD's be able to move watches arounf the wo...
Take the good with the bad...
One of those 5170s is for sale from the owner of Antiquorum, not exactly a small player and someone who's helped Patek, perhaps unintentionally, by providing a robust market for their vintage pieces. A
The risk of AD's being caught is bad
PP is in the process of closing AD's (5 in the US this year). Before closing however, they get scrutinized and get less "desirable" merchandise allocated to them. Is this worth it, just to sell a few watches that end up in GD?
I will try to give a little insight to this problem and the dynamics
that may cause the issues everyone is talking about. As an AD, you sign a contract agreeing to a host of things but the two big no-no's are transshipping or selling to an unauthorized dealer. If you don't abide by the contract , Patek can terminate the co...
Thank you for shedding light!!
Whit- Thank you for your excellent illuminating explanation! If I may inquire further, is there anything in the Authorized Dealer contract that prohibits discounting/inflating the price? In all honesty, what is an AD supposed to do after a watch is sold t...
Got to try on the 5170 at a night with patek philippe....
....in Newcastle last Thursday and the watch is amazing in the flesh.
There is not anything that I recall about discounting
although there was encouragement for everyone to "look at your margins". I sold pieces at list, not below and certainly not above. I felt the prices were fair (the April '08 increase was a bit strong but given the frenzy, the thought was probably that fol...
Wow! thanks for the insight...
most of what I know came from speaking with AD's and personnel within PP whenever the chance arise. Can you confirm about the existence of the "black list" for customers who were caught flipping? It's a story heard and read, but actually enforced... not s...
I can only confirm one incident when someone
purchased a 10 day tourbillon which was put up at auction very shortly afterwards. I was told that this person would never, ever get another special piece. And I had no reason to doubt that it happened being that this occurred 3-4 years ago when things we...
Great info!
Once again, thank you for pulling back the curtain on the AD mystery machine. I honestly never realized that an AD was under so much pressure from Patek. I thought ADs had more control over what they wanted and when they wanted it. The AD must literally h...
based on my knowledge
it's a combination of the AD (ie.. watches sold, rules followed, relationship, account viability) and the individual customer's record as known by PP. Without one, the other won't work.
To respond to your first question.
I would suspect the question may refer to pieces like the 5131, 5170, 5711, 5712, etc. instead simple pieces or annual calendars. It used to be very accommodating until five or six years ago, then things seemed to change and pieces which used to be readil...
I forgot to mention one thing.
If you happen to be approved, a 50% deposit of the current price is required and the balance upon delivery. If the exchange rate changes then that would be taken into account. It was explained to me like this. Assume the piece is $400,000 today, a $200,00...
Interesting thread
with such insight into the AD experience. I will add from the collector perspective that all the BS when trying to put up hard earned money to buy a desirable Patek is a net negative. And I have long been struck by some of the contradictory or even hypocr...
Once again, thank you!!,
Thank you for sharing your experiences and information! To some extent, i wonder if Patek has loosened up their strict rules and policies with the current financial situation. Then again you stated that your experiences were through 2009 so nothing may ha...
Patek probably understands the grey market pretty well
Thanks to whit for the very insightful comments on the AD's point of view. I strongly suspect that Patek has extensive and specific information about the grey market. In the past, I worked at a major manufacturing company and our products had an active gr...
Thank you Whit........................
For a fascinating insight to the world of the AD and some pf your experiences that you have encountered along the way. By the way did your customer ever acquire their MR?