Patek Philippe

I see two of the new in-house chrono 5170's listed on eB** today.  Anybody else hearing of them at the dealers?  My AD told me he wasn't expecting one until spring.  Anyone tempted?

I want to see one in person and may wait to see what it looks like in the other metals, but I definitely see one of these in my future!

Steve 

Hi,

Good news if they are out, not as good if they are on sale already on the net! 

I can't wait to see it again, although it can be in my reaching range

Cheers

Dje

It is rather a pity that the first ones found their way not to collectors and persons
that bought them for their enjoyment but in order to profit from them....

Sad.

It's great that the watch is out, but it is a great shame that a true collector can only get them on eBay and by paying close to double price.

Same with the 5131, they sell on eBay for 3-4 times the list price, while a regular collector can just forget about getting one from their AD.

 

Of course all the secondary dealers will disagree and tell me its capitalism at its best. What is "tragic" is most of these secondary dealers don't even have in their possession the Pateks they are pushing. What is a "crying shame" is the AD's whom supply these secondary dealers. Either way us collectors are on the losing end. We always were we always will be. Capitalism, sure. Greed, sure . When you mix the two what do you get ? TIme will give you the answer.

Whatever their stated policies may be, I'm sure they love it when their watches go for a huge premium. I doubt it would happen if they seriously decided to prevent it.

they do try to prevent it....

For example if a 5131 is sold through Frey market, the original buyer is blacklisted...

Cheers

I don't.  Trading is their business.

Regards

Ling

I think you are refering to those grey market dealers and not those so called "real" ADs. Patek is pretty strict on this. From what I know their ADs have been told not to humor those grey market dealers. But then again there will always be some black sheep.

Henry Hoe   

deliveries started this past week in the US.  I'm just surprised at the speed in which they landed on grey dealer's sites instead of collectors... don't the AD's know their customers?  I assume that they allocate them to their best customers, since these watches are going to be delivered one per dealer for now, if they get one at all

I'd presume the grey market dealers go to the ADs posing as collectors.   If they buy a lot of watches from the AD then what's his options?   I'm sure he suspects they are grey market - but do they want to antagonize them?   What if they really are just very wealthy collectors.   And, moving all that inventory must be good for the AD - especially in this economic climate.   I can see the dilemma.    They AD who just sold the 5170 in SoCal that's on ebay  must have a clue - but what to do about it?

Whether the AD's know what will happen to the pieces that they sale or not, will not change a thing.

There will always be someone prepared to buy and than immediately sell the piece for a profit.

The only people who will ultimately loose out, are us the genuine collectors

how did you know that the 5170 is from the So Cal AD?  My AD once had a piece flipped by a customer, and HSWA tracked it back within days to him... he had a bad day.  He fired his customer.   The 5131 that was flipped recently was tracked back to a FL guy, and this person is now on the bad list for applications pieces in PP.   Therefore, unlike rumors,  AD's and HSWA does try to control these things from happening, to the extent that they can.

Does Patek have people that act as customers for the ebay auctions and request pictures of the warranty documents? Then trace info from those numbers. Of course it's probably easier to track a 5016 on the grey market than say 5970 (from a theoretical production point of view).

by looking at the merchandise to verify prior to a purchase (and checking out the numbers) without actually buying them, and occasionally purchasing the watches.  Whichever way it is, as a collector, I don't want to be in the black list at all.....it's a small community, and people talk.  PP does know their good and bad customers.  The ones in the middle range, they probably don't know.

Patek will always figure it out!

Being on that bad list can seriously affect one's collection goals. I have read some stories of collectors that were completely turned off to the brand after being put on the bad list.

Although grey dealers are in the game to make serious money from their premium prices, it may actually be a relativr discount for someone that has the money but not necessarily a sufficient collection of Patek watches for their application to be approved. Although the grey market price for a 5131 maybe $150k+, how many watches would you need to purchase to be able to purchase the 5131 at list?

You probably have to buy some, and probably to the same amount that you spent
to over pay the flipper..... But in this case you will have more watches to enjoy in
your collection and on your wrist....

Cheers

While I would certainly enjoy purchasing the other watches, I doubt purchasing a 5146p, 5980 and 5711 for good measure (100k+ sum) would allow me to acquire a 5131 at list.

for the one 5131 your AD gets every 2yrs (since approx only 12/yr, 1/mth to make) you need to be their BEST client and they need to really really really like you.  That being said, be nice to your ADs, send them gifts! haha

I apologize to our US members, I know there are quite a few ... but ....

When I look at places like Ebay , chrono24, and other sites where people can sell their watches I see that the hard to get pieces are moslty for sale via the US ( search for 5070P, 5131, now the 5170). Maybe Patek should do some research in the US because somehow the flippers get more watches than collectors. The application form process does not seem to work in the US

And don't forget, the 5170 is great but don't be stupid and do not pay an insane premium, they will make it for several years. Just like the mororns who paid 50% over list for the first  just to get asap the 5960/5980/5712 ...

 

Let's all stop pretending. Frequently a regular shop will have financial issues and be overweight on stock that does not move. Then this junk will get pushed to a surplus dealer together with a few high value pieces which will get sold at +30 or +40, and everyone is happy.

Also, do you really think that when a new piece comes out, staff don't tell their "friends" to get on the so-called "waiting list?"

ili

I would agree with your assessment on USA flippers.  Perhaps it's because we are in such dire economic straits! 

I really think my AD is a solid guy and wouldn't knowingly particiapte in something like this.  It would seem to me that at some point an end-buyer is going to register the watch and then Patek would know or be able to infer its journey.  If I were a Patek dealer I would think the risk of getting caught selling to flippers is very high and the reward not worth it.

That being said, the forces of supply and demand are powerful.  As long as people want more of a watch than Patek actually makes, this kind of thing will find a way to happen.

Personally, I totally agree that it's a sucker bet to buy the 1st one on the market at a huge premium.  Patience is indeed a virtue!

Steve

But we only know where they are being sold - not where they came from.    So, it's just an indication that the supply/demand imbalance is greater here.   For all we know, these pieces came from Asia - where I've heard Patek is allocating a greater percentage of their units (which, by the way is probably an excellent business decision - building up a new, and wealthy customer base).

I heard from the guy I purchased my 5970P from that many of them were coming to the USA via Asia.  Is this then a way to maintain a market equilibrium?  If Patek doesn't allocate according to market demands, should AD's be able to move watches arounf the world via the grey market to find a buyer?

Steve

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One of those 5170s is for sale from the owner of Antiquorum, not exactly a small player and someone who's helped Patek, perhaps unintentionally, by providing a robust market for their vintage pieces.
A

PP is in the process of closing AD's (5 in the US this year).  Before closing however, they get scrutinized and get less "desirable" merchandise allocated to them.  Is this worth it, just to sell a few watches that end up in GD?

do you know this?

Thanks

Cheers

that may cause the issues everyone is talking about.

As an AD, you sign a contract agreeing to a host of things but the two big no-no's are transshipping or selling to an unauthorized dealer.  If you don't abide by the contract , Patek can terminate the contract and you lose your AD status.

I had a situation where a pretty well known television personality wanted to buy a watch, his best friend called and I talked to this individual for several hours over the course of a couple of days and made arrangements for him to view the entire line at HSWA.  Once he had made his decision, he called and wanted to know the price, which he already knew, and I told him the price.  Within hours, there were several inquiries from other dealers about the availability of this specific reference number.  He was shopping for the lowest price.  After this episode, I decided not sell outside my demographic area, any inquiries I received from that point forward were referred back to the AD within their demographic area.  By the way, we did end up selling the piece after the person at HSWA told the other dealers to leave this one alone (which I was very appreciative). 

It used to be in the olden days, if I needed a piece, I would call the office and if available, would get it. If not, I would place an order.  At that time sold pieces had priority over stock pieces.  Recently though, that situation seems to have changed.  In order for you to get anything for stock, it had to be ordered (back ordered) requiring the AD to project his future needs.  Meaning, if you needed six 5119's annually, they needed to be on order or else there was a strong possibility that you would not get the piece(s) you needed because you would be X places behind those ahead of you on the order list. Special orders? There was a list for that as well and sometimes you would be a year or more away.

The problem I encountered was that I was getting pieces that I had ordered, but not the pre-sold special ordered watches.  That causes huge problems if you're in a smaller demographic area because you simply can't sell the watches that quickly (without misbehaving).  And believe me, there is a time clock ticking.  So what happens when a dealer gets a lot of watches in and can't sell them fast enough to cover the bill? ( I'll let you guess)  And, if you're late, you can't order a buckle... nothing, until the balance is cleared, then it starts all over again.  Unless the dealer has very deep pockets and can keep accepting the inventory that may sit for a while, you have to balance what you can do and hope and pray that you get those special pieces for clients so you can keep going forward.  My attitude was that I just wasn't to sell a watch any way possible simply to cover a bill, even if it meant I was backed up and couldn't get anything (philosophically, good; business-wise, not good).  I still have my own ethical and moral standards dealing with a brand like Patek regardless of business even though I am no longer an AD.

Look at the number of AD's advertising on the net, magazines, etc. trying to capture business from anybody, anywhere. How can they possibly know who they are selling?  It's about movement of money.

When dealing with clients, I always imagined Philippe Stern standing nearby knowing that the product and client were being treated the way he would want it to be, to the highest level.  Unfortunately, money speaks far louder than words and good intentions, so I ended up selling many, many watches without ever collecting a dime.  Now at the end of the year, who do you love? Someone who tries to do it right  or someone who spends a boatload of money with you?

I believe the reality of this is pretty obvious.