Baron - Mr Red
14613
Absolutely agree....
.....and that is why everyone builds a collection of watches that they like....that suits their own specific and unique tastes.
Where it gets more tricky is when someone says..."This watch is better than that watch." In my view, that statement can only ever be true for one person's tastes.
In my opinion, of which I am equally entitled to, it makes very little sense to define any watch as "better" or "better relative value" or whatever comparative you want to use. Given that we are all different, "better" implies some knowledge or opinion which is factual whereas each of us has our own view on what is to our taste. You have an enamel Rousseau. I know that this watch is something that you absolutely adore. It would not be a watch that I would have in my collection as it does not suit my tastes. I would much prefer a 5131R. Now, does that mean that i can say that the 5131R is better than your Rousseau? In my view, it would be wrong and misguided to make such a call. The only thing I can say is that to my taste, I prefer the 5131R. So, ultimately, all one ever does when one asks the question "Is X better than Y?" is determine the specific taste preference of the person giving the opinion. What do i learn from this? That some people have a similar taste to me and that some people don't. I already knew that...so i learn very little. And if i read through all the responses on this thread, I have not learnt anything from the basis of the question. Indeed, most people either state that they find it hard to compare an apple with a pear or that they like one or another....do I really learn anything about either watch? No....nothing new at all.
For me, I would have framed the question like this....."I have a friend who prefers the NY Skyline to the 5131. How do other collectors feel about that?" That is at least a more objective and analytical question. Making a statement that X is "better" than Y just makes no sense at all to me. Just my opinion...and like you say...we are all entitled to debated opinion, right?
Objective and unbiased evaluation and opinion is great. "My watch is better than yours" just doesn't make sense to me.
Hi All, this 5230 New York belongs to my PuristS friend who is too shy to post. LOL!
I think it is a very lovely piece ! Pure Patek DNA in that it exudes understated elegance! His comments regarding this reference are: "It’s a very elegant watch. I think the dial is better than the 5131 enamel maps because the blue New York skyline motif ...
Hi FRAM, thanks For your quick reply!.
So if you were living in the US, you would get one ? Cheers, Gordon Cheers, Gordon
Totally different watches, in terms of dial proportions and decoration ( guilloché / enamel )
As for the value, the market will tell. It is a bit too soon, I think. But there is some room for both, I am sure of that. Best, Nicolas
Hi Nicolas, what I meant was that...
5131G costs around $x whereas this 5230G costs around $y. With y below x, which would be selected if you can chose either? Does the difference matter to you ? Cheers, Gordon
Hi Gordon, no offence but IMO it's in a different league than any 5131 in terms of elegance, class and artistic pretence.
I would even prefer a standard 5230G or R over this iteration which I find a bit kitschy. Best, Volker
Hi Volker, thanks for your honest reply !
The dial seems quite discrete. Why do you think that it is kitschy? Cheers, Gordon
They’re not opposite but complementary, in my opinion, as they’re deeply different. I have a soft spot for this one but it’s just a matter of personal taste
I particularly love the hour hand which makes me think to a skyscraper which perfectly matches the context of the NY dial. Best wishes Alkiro
Thanks Alkiro, you always have a different perspective!
Hour hand like a building ! Good catch ! Cheers, Gordon
I would love to have that! Congratulations to your friend...
but I feel it’s hard to compare this with the enamel dial WT, each has its merits. Very lucky and well heeled owners will have both 😬 Rgds Raymond
Hi Raymond, you did get some LE New York watches, right ?
Did you not ask for this reference ? Cheers, Gordon
I did ask for this but unfortunately not important enough to get allocation 😭
I asked for 4 watches and got 2, still happy though. My wife got the 7200/50G and I am getting the 5522A, still waiting for delivery. The other 2 are this NYC men’s 5230 and ladies 7130G. Rgds Raymond
Hi Raymond, two LE New York pieces are already...
plenty good ! Leave some on the table for others who are not VIP like you. Chee s, Gordon
In Patek world, I’m so damn far from being VIP...
I’m know you definitely are since you have those enamel WT, Beijing Maison editions and 5575G. However, I agree I’m very happy with the allocation. Cheers to you too! Rgds Raymond
Thanks Raymond ! IMO, VIP is really a...
relative term. China (and other countries) VIPs buy unique pieces. I do not want to know what one has to buy or pay before a unique piece can be bestowed on the person. Cheers, Gordon
That's a splendid version...
Well, about your question, they are so different watches. I think it comes to what one wants but hard to find elements to compare. Your friend has made an excellent move as it is a beautiful watch and interesting model regarding the context and colors use...
Hi Mark, thanks for your comments and the value reminder !
My intention in value was really based on the owner's surprising comment regarding his take that this reference is better than 5131 ! You know how I feel about the 5131, right ? Apologies if I crossed the line ! Cheers, Gordon
No problem Gordon!
You didn't cross it, I just reminded that point but in a total neutral way, no problem. We're only "chatting" Best, Mark
I shall be candid as always :-)
Nice watch but the 5131s are at a different level. This watch may appeal more to someone living in New York due to the skyline - yes it is discreet but the colours on the enamel dial (like on your lovely 5131G!) are quite spectacular. The fact that no two...
Thanks sham for your comments !
I love my 5131G and also think highly (but not as high as my 5131) of this 5230 New York because the blue discrete dial color matches the blue strap very well. They are complementary don't you think ? Cheers, Gordon
Agreed!
They match beautifully but then again,so does Alkiro's Chronometre Bleu's strap and watch (yes I have been secretly admiring your posts Alkiro!! )). The 5230 New York is a nice watch but not special enough in my opinion.
My view....
....seems obvious to me that your friend prefers the skyline WT. He bought that version but didn’t buy the 5131. So unless he is very illogical, it makes perfect sense that he bought and prefers the NY skyline version. May he wear that watch in the best o...
Hi Baron, on behalf of my friend, I thank you for wishing him wearing his watch in the best of health. Although it was obvious...
to you based on the information posted, please let me add that this collector also has a 5131. Given my appreciation and love for the 5131, I was very surprised that he thought the NY version was "better" than 5131. Hence, I posted the question to Patek P...
The thing is Gordon....
.....i also know a collector who has both versions and that collector happens to prefer the 5131 much more. So what we have here is a sample size of two, and the opinion is split. Now, does that make the 5131 "better" or does it make the NY skyline "bette...
Hi Baron, I totally understand what you are saying. To clarify, I am not interested in...
determining which reference is "better". My point is that I do not mind others say why they think one reference is "better" than another or why they prefer one over another as long as they explain why. Actually I enjoy reading their points of view. Do you...
Gordon....
Firstly, your post explicitly stated that your friend described one dial as "better" than the other. You asked members here what they thought about this and the relative monetary value of each. So, it looks to me that you were asking very specifically abo...
Hi Baron, I posted exactly what my friend wrote to me.
In addition to his saying "better", he also wrote "elegant", "discrete" , etc. So when I wrote "what do you guys think", it was referred to all the points listed. Personally I wanted others to respond to all the points listed by my friend. I was not askin...
Hi Baron, it is not about who has the last word. We have previously...
agreed to disagree on other posts. Cheers, Gordon
Love the Typeface of the 5230 LE NYC
A modern version of the 5131 with non-italicised font, beautiful motif of NYC skyline, but prefer the hour-markers and the hands to be slightly more contrasty, maybe lighter grey? Congrats to the owner for owning such an astounding piece, nevertheless.
Hi avatarian74, this 5230 New York is indeed beautiful !
Good point on the contrast needed ! Are you a watch designer ? Cheers, Gordon
I can only say the 5131 IS very discrete
for 99.99% of the people its just a watch with a colored dial. ANY rolex, Breitling, Cartier, Omega etc gets more attention from the 99.99% non WIS put there than that unknown watch with the colored dial Only some WIS like us know what it is and how it's ...
Hi Baron, I agree that the artistic work on the 5131 is at a much higher level.
Interesting point for me is that the owner of 5230 NY LE prefers this reference more than his 5131. His key criteria is discretion. Given this requirement, I totally understand his thinking. Cheers, Gordon
Lovely WT NYC edition!
I prefer that version or the 5230 - foremost on the case size, secondly the hour/minute Hands that are discrete IMO, and thirdly the font size - non italics version. Now having learned that the NYC version is priced lower than the 5230, I would definitely...
Thank you Greenwatch for your comments. Any particular reason why...
you would like a Chicago and LA? Cheers, Gordon
I used to live in Chicago. Always love the place!
I visit my kid at LA often so I have grown to love the place. These places have an emotional attachment to me. Now that Patek has issued a WT for NYC, I am hoping they will create an LE piece for either of these two cities.
Thanks greenwatch for your explanation!
Hope Patek will produce the Chicago and/or LA version ! Cheers, Gordon
Here we are again on slippery slope of better worst and value....
two amazing watches that can make happy many different type of people...why one would have to be better? Why not just enjoy with what we think is "better" without having "proof of consensus" it's better? Sincerely D
Totally agree with you
Makes absolutely no sense to me at all. I prefer this. You prefer that. Bla. Bla.
I agree...
The only ones who can give a none biased opinion are those who own both... lucky enough to get an allocation for the 5131 and have a US AD that approved the NY version.
And even then....
....it’s just a personal view. Another with both may have a different view. Wrong. Right. ???
Agree
However, at least the person truly compared. The perception here seems to be that the none US based collectors has not been so positive. I assume that this may be due to lack of access to the NY release. Just my opinion.
I guess so....
.....from my perspective, I really like it...if i had been a New Yorker, I would have got one. I think it looks great. But comparing it to a 5131 (or for that matter any other watch) seems pointless given we all have our own specific biases.
Hi jonrus, in this particular case, my friend does have both and has expressed his opinion.
My post was intended to solicit what others think of my friend's thinking based on what they know and prefer. Cheers, Gordon
Hi Baron, IMO, each PuristS has and is entitled to his/her own preference.
To me, as long as one's preference comes with an explanation, I want to hear it. Cheers, Gordon
Absolutely agree....
.....and that is why everyone builds a collection of watches that they like....that suits their own specific and unique tastes. Where it gets more tricky is when someone says..."This watch is better than that watch." In my view, that statement can only ev...
Hi Baron, I hear you and by reading your considered response, IMO our "difference" lies in that fact that...
I am fine with others saying one reference is "better" than another and I enjoy reading their reasons. In the replies, I have learned about how others think in their determination on what is "better", irrespective whether I agree with them or not. Cheers,...
So now I am getting confused....
.....one minute you argue that you "are not interested in determining which reference is "better", but here you state that you are fine with others saying one reference is "better" than another. Which is it? I am now confused. The reason I love this forum...
again...totally confusing.....
....to be clear..."Do you think it is a good idea or not to ask the question..."Is Watch X better than Watch Y"
Hi Baron, Again, my friend wrote his thoughts about his watch and he...
said many things. I was simply asking others what they thought about everything that my friend said and my post was not focused on determining "better". Hope this clarifies any misunderstanding. Cheers, Gordon
Gordon, my question was really straightforward
I still do not know your answer. It is either yes or no.
Hi Baron, your question to which you want a yes or no answer IMO is asked out of context. Irrespective, my thoughts are below:
You asked "Do you think it is a good idea or not to ask the question..."Is Watch X better than Watch Y". On the other hand, I asked others' thoughts on the owner's overall comments "It’s a very elegant watch. I think the dial is better than the 5131 ename...
Hi D, it is interesting how comments have evolved in this post.
My original question was to ask how others would compare the 5230 dial vs 5131 dial. IMO, it is understandable for PuristS to chime in on the comparison and then naturally make comments on why they like one more than the other or think one is better than ...
Path to hell is tiled with good intentions :)
I'm confused on many levels here Gordon First your friend is Purist but he is not posting his new acquisition but you do. I find that strange if he is Purist... why not posting? If he is shy why then letting you post his piece? So he is not shy piece is p...
Hi D, it is unfortunate and unintended that the post caused you much confusion. Your comments above raised good points.
First, I have used the term "PuristS" loosely in that for me, watch friends of mine who enjoy watches and at times read (not necessarily post) on this site, is a PuristS. Here are context and experiences that I have had with the behavior of certain Purist...
I know many people who collect watches and read PuristS but not post
Damjan, People chose to post at different stages in their lives. Some never post. I was a lurker for years before my first query. Looking back, it was a naïve question but the moderators were very kind and patient so I was encouraged to return. Then, I be...
Right you are Nico...
Seems totally futile asking which dial is “better”. Best, Ahmed
Dear beejo
Dear beejo, The original post was asking for opinion of readers' preference of dial and why. Thus, it was initiating discussion, which is the raison d'etre of our forum. Passion Opinion Information. This is not a criticism of your comment...which, is also...
Hi Melvyn....i think i take a different view to you
If you read Siamcollector's response to the post...the very last post on this thread, you can see that he interprets Gordon's question to imply future monetary value. Indeed, in response to Nicolas's pointer, Gordon did clarify and specifically referred t...
Hi Baron, in your reply to MTF, you reminded him one of Mark's (moderator to this forum) comments in his first reply to my post..
"As for value, as you know we won't mention this part here (so no one even know the answer) :p". We should also inform MTF that I subsequently responded to Mark by writing "apologies if I crossed the line !". Mark then replied "You didn't cross it. I just...
I think everyone should take a deep breath!
Will the response to this post differ if the question was change to "which dial is your preference and why" from is watch X better than watch Y and why? I don't think so! PuristS have spoken to why they think one watch is "better" than the other and the r...
Thank you KC_HK for your comments on the unintended discussion, and please may we also have...
your comments on the 5230 New York, which is the original topic ? Cheers, Gordon
As many PuristS have stated.....
It's difficult to compare the guilloché NY to enamel dial. Their similarity stops at they are both WT. There are so many personal feelings that goes into the NY dials for US collectors and people with connections to NY. If you do not have any connections ...
I fully agree!
Especially since these are two very different type of decorations and technics. Some would always prefer a Enamel dial (no matter of what kind of motif) and some would always prefer New York due to their connection to the city... That said, there is anoth...
Its more legible than the enamel map painted 5131s.
Cloissone 5131s are works of art. Masterpieces. But for me these are also nice Gordon. And if you have an intrinsic love for NYC its a must have for a world time. Cheers Gordon. Geross
This thread really took a left turn somewhere.
Was GLau wrong to post his friend's watch along with the quoted statement from his friend? Now, I can't imagine finding myself in Gordon's position, as all my friends who are watch lovers are here on this forum; and none are shy about posting their opinio...
Great piece
I love world timer. I think of them as very functional and very intuitive. Imo for me I would go for a 5131R as I have two home, one in USA and one in Thailand, which perfectly fit my life. As for New York City depict in a dial of my watch..wont suit me. ...
Hi Siamcollector, yes, the Worldtime reference generally has a strong ...
geographical connection to its owner and especially so for the 5131 with enamel map. With your homes in Asia and USA, the 5131R is the perfect WT for you ! Cheers, Gordon