Officine Panerai

Are the once panerai watch mad public buying other brands,, i have been watching lots of uk dealer web sites and panerais over 6k dont seem to sell as the bubble burst???  Rolex ap patek ,,and the like have no thouble selling there high end stock

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I CAN'T HEAR YOU!

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We'll see if you're still smiling then!

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I don't think Panerai has that much trouble selling models over $6k.  Heck, practically almost all the watches posted here that people have gotten recently are well over $6k.

Cheers,
Anthony

A bubble has not burst, and isn't going to do so anytime soon...  if ever.

But there has been a distribution change from Panerai which has created negative energy in the Panerai collecting community.

As Panerai opens Boutiques, and ends relationships with authorized dealers that helped them build the brand, some long time collectors feel shunned by the brand. They feel bad for their AD and for themselves.

Many collectors have built relationships with their AD's by buying watches regularly in an effort to remain high on the AD's list for special edition distribution. These collectors have built some extensive collections of watches to say the least. Many enjoyed the special attention they received from their AD, as well as their prized watch collections.

That same collector now has to buy a watch from a Boutique, where they have no relationship and often have to deal long distance. They have now been passed over from getting several special editions as they are now near the bottom of the list (or so it seems).

They didn't get the PAM 382 Bronzo, but 6 months later they got a call from the Boutique that they can have a PAM 372, after 3500 had already been distributed, so they now feel like throwing in the towel.

Honestly, I don't blame them. It is tough to go from top dog to the dog house.

As a collector and seller of Panerai watches, I think I have a pretty good feel for the market.

I have had a few collectors ask me to move some of their timepieces, but not their favorite ones. They are "venting" but not jumping ship. And these few collectors are still checking out this Panerai discussion forums and others. They are upset with their new position in the pecking order, but they are still passionate about the brand. I know this because they are still calling me weekly to discuss Panerai watches.

Yes, they are trying some other watch brands too, but my experience shows they always come back to Panerai. One collector recently told me his Panerai held their value through the recession as well if not better than his Rolex and Patek watches ( I know, value is only part of the equation).  Also, he said he made too many Panerai friends to walk away now.

You are correct when you stated $6000 watches are selling at a very slow rate. My opinion is that is a sign of the slumping world wide economy.  Collectors that buy watches in that price range have less expendable funds than the collector that buys 25-100k watches. Almost every collector is buying a price point down, or selling one piece before they buy another.  I promise you, I am getting calls every week from people that have just discovered the brand.

Also, I work with 4 other brands rather extensively and Panerai is out preforming all of them. It is still top dog in my small arsenal of inventory.

Personally, I don't like what Panerai is doing with the AD/Boutique remarketing scheme. But Bonati is a marketing genius. He has something up his sleeve (other than a Panerai watch) and I am confident he will make it work. Second, Panerai has a following unlike any other brand. It is a brotherhood and I don't think this community will abandon the brand. Last, the dynamics of military history and Italian design/styling, that is second to none, are truly captivating. 

The best brand will have highs and lows, but that doesn't mean it was built on a bubble.  I think Panerai just has too much going for it to pop.

Thanks,
Bruce
Bigb




 

Bruce, I agree on almost everything you said!

And I'm one of those who hate the fact that panerai is selling some LE only via their own boutiques. I HATE IT

The reasons why?, well you explained them in your post. I don't have a big collection but I do have a super relationship with my AD and he did sell me nice watches ( not all off them becauseofcourse  he has other clients too but in general I could not complain)

Also he knows me very well and knows that I keep my watches end don't flip the hot pieces the next day. On the other hand, I know other people who collect watches not Panerai, and they are smart enough to know which will be hot or not and try to get these from a boutique. Some got it, others didn't. Those that got it sold it asap and will do this again.

My AD knows his market very well and knows who keeps them and who sells them, the last kind of persons simply don't get the watches.

Another reason why I hate this. Let's look at another brand with way more collectors but probably more discrete collectors because in general you won't find huge collections or GTG on the net. I'm talking bout Patek Philippe.

Well, their sought after pieces like the 5070 years ago or the 5131 today is or are watches you can buy at your AD. Patek does have some boutiques but they don't have the arrogance to 'give up' their dealers. I know 2 guys who got both a 5131J from an AD. Rolex could open boutiques and sell all the 116520 via their own boutiques ... they don't.

On youtube you can find a great interview with Mr Stern about this. He explains why the dealers are so important to him.

I do know quite a lot of people in this watchworld ( collectors and dealers) and the big part of them hates this new strategy. So when you said  : 'Personally, I don't like what Panerai is doing with the AD/Boutique remarketing scheme. But Bonati is a marketing genius. He has something up his sleeve (other than a Panerai watch) and I am confident he will make it work. ' That's when I say also a genius can make a mistake

Speaking for myself, I wait until SIHH 2013 and if they tell me again the LE are only for the boutiques .... There will be a big chance all sell  my pieces and I won't buy other Panerai  ..... on the contrary I might also use them to flip  LOL. I hope many people would do this so they feel  it and realise that this kind of arrogance in not appreciated.

 

 

I think we both feel the same way.

Part of the new equation is that they are asking "some" AD's to be their partners and open a boutique for them. I don't know the details of this type of relationship.

But your points are well taken.

Only time will tell!

Thanks again,

Bruce

 

Some ADs 'partners' have already been burnt this way, doing all what was needed but solely benefiting the brand(s) and only helping developing regions and new to come  in-house boutiques.  This industry like all businesses is only about business.  We are the one putting sentiments and values when it is in the end only mechanics, industrial mechanics.

I feel the question should be more about if we fell or can justify to be a part of this industry or if we are rightly getting our role, do we get what and how we want it? and can we still afford it (services, after sales etc...).  

What the brands would do if we don't go to the Boutiques anymore,, because we had an excellent relation with our ADs?

I don't like the way it goes, too...

As for service or repairs costs, this is another nightmare which would justify a dedicated thread....

Best,

Nicolas

Not surprisingly, you are insightful and correct!

Especially for countries where there is no Boutique , because Boutiques will ( quite understandably ) give preference to their local/regular customers .
So for Panerai enthusiasts who live in these Non Boutique countries , they are caught between a rock and a hard place .
They want to support their local Dealer , but when it comes to Ltd Editions , they need to find a sympathetic Boutique that will sell them
a Ltd Edition with the knowledge that the customer will buy the bread and butter stuff from his local AD .

Many brands have Boutique only editions of regular watches ( E.G. Vacheron has the black dial versions of their Contemporaine range ) ,
but their customers can still buy the same watch with a different dial colour , which isn't that much of a big deal .

But getting back to the original question , I don't think the Panerai bubble has burst , but there is a definite leaning toward the more
historically influenced models , Dealers can sell every 005/000 model they get allocated , but far more interesting and technically
superior models can sit in the window for weeks , I don't think its a price issue as I know people who could afford a ltd edition or
seriously expensive PAM but chose a bread and butter model ..............

Regards .

Hatem,

I know you will enjoy your Panerai watches as well as collecting them!

Have Fun!

Bruce 

 

I think he realizes the image the brand is veering towards... Mass market availability, so to speak.. Good for sales, but dangerous in that it takes the brand image in an undesirable direction for any brand worth its cents. 

firstly, there are very few Panerai models that go below the 6K costs, these days. Secondly, Panerai has been a brand in transition, for a while. The need to create a wider customer's base has driven the brand away from the...grassroot aficionados..(the ones that still consider Panerai a cult) and into new territory. The grassroot aficionados are the ones that bought Panerai for....Panerai's sake. They didn't much care what was inside and were content with owning a "piece of history". The new clientele is a bit more demanding (and fickle) and still not "glued" to Panerai. That's why a lot of new models have so many...bells&whistles. These are the models that have to compete in the open market (something Panerai NEVER had to do before, as a niche operator). The reason why there are high&lows in the sales of Panerai is, probably, because the "new clients" compare the costs and performances of a Panerai vs an IWC, Rolex, VC etc and still buy the other brands on their merit. IMO

like to thank bruce and the guys for there excellent feedback,, makes a lot of sense we are having  the same thouble in uk ,,panerai closeing down dealerships for little or no reason to open more dealership in the far east,,  So im told,,,Plus reply to anthony the first post is £6000 uk pound not us dollers plus pre owened market not new

Still selling well whatever OP dishes out esp the SE, LE.

some bridges burnt but new ones are formed by new cliente. Net net not much loss to OP.

My 2 cents.

cheers

PAt

i assume 6k is in sterling, since you mentioned UK websites etc.

i have certain views of the brand, and they are moving in a direction that I think is broadly right. the move to own boutiques mentioned by others has also reduced the rampant AD "insider trading" and grey dealer participation. some feathers are ruffled. how many so call old PAM timers are on the side flipping the very same watches they wax lyrical about?

if anything, the incessant glorifying of vintage and PreV PAMS leading to watches of dubious heritage and highly overpriced pieces, thats the bubble to watch.

inventory levels at grey and pre own dealers have increased, from my cursory enquiries. ADs stock remains low. One of my staff is looking to buy his first PAM, and of the three model he has chosen, none of the three Singapore Ads have stock!!

best,

Horo

i have no scientific data to give, just personal experience.. 

4 years ago i went to a very exclusive and famous AD in san francisco.  i was trying to find a 005 or 88.  the guys didn't have 1 single model in the store.  not one!  the gentleman also told me that "tom cruise beat you to the 88 a week ago when he drove all the way down here."  this was 4 years ago.

now, every single boutique or AD i've been to around the world  has all kinds of models at all different levels.  base, contemporary, manifattura, yes even some LEs.

even gray market dealers have stock of models that people usually fight over.  gosh there's even this one gray market dealer near me that has a 232 on display and it's been there for months.  and another dealer with a 249 that's just been sitting there...

a small observation from watchpro,  the panerai forum doesn't move as fast as it used to.  but a lot of the forums are like this too lately...

of course there will always be models which you can't find or will have to fight for.  but then again, the other brands are like this as well no?

i love panerai, but i have gotten over my lust to have all the different variations...

In their urge to increase sales and create wider customer’s base…..Panerai make a mistake by cloning the old models too much

The first, I remembered was the 26K Destro – 26B

…..and the flood gates open….

372 – 127

424,448 – 249

 390 – in my opinion, kill all the base models (00,05,112) and boutique (pig) models.

425, 449 – 373

 

Some collect watches for the design, wearability and looks,…some for the history of the brand.

And the fun part of collecting,….having a watch you bought long ago, become rare and highly sought after..….and some, the price has also gone up double (or ten folds) from its original value.

 

Sadly the prices for the discontinued models have soften currently….and if Panerai continue to clone PreV models…the aficionados will be selling….or have they already??   

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7 years later and the tear from the grass root has become a chasm (as predicted). The brand, however, has grown by leaps and bounds. Dott Bonati achieved his goal to wrestle away the Panerai's brand, from the few "high priests" and take it out of the catacombs. Now, if that's better or worse for the brand itself, is a question that will have an answer few years down the road, after the new M.D. will have "done his stuff". IMO of course

The brand grew up from a teenager to a man. Now we can enjoy the next chapter.

If I want a particular model I can typically go to an AD and buy one. I don't have to be put on a wait list or hope that Tom Cruise doesn't beat me to the punch My only complaint is that Panerai has strayed from it's roots a bit more than I'd like (spring bars, reduced WR, etc.) but I guess that's inevitable as a brand evolves and tries to meet a certain price point. That said, I think there's still plenty about the brand to like and they do occasionally produce a new model that really appeals to me. Still a fan...

did to leave all the speculators...off-side. Because that was the issue. A particular model would be bought by an A.D./Flipper with the right connections at price-list and seconds later...flipped...for twice/three time the price. In all this, Panerai was only responsible for the..frustration..of the "have-not", without the windfall of the astronomical profits (for the most coveted models)...pocketed by the flippers and A.D. Nowadays, you can still book a L.E. but also have the additional chance of walking into a boutique and buying it right there and then. I'm sure many frustrated, potential Paneristi are...owners...now and looking forward to buy other models.

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