Horological Meandering

Hi,

I am considering adding a chronograph to my collection. I want a chronograph with a dark dial, more sporty than dressy, water resistance suitable for swimming, good night visibility with a distinct look from my other 5 watches (see below) and a running second hand.  I have identified three watches that I like for differing reasons.  I also have some concerns about each of them.  I wanted to share some images of these and some of my thinking with this forum. 

I would appreciate the benefit of your thinking in help me make my decision. 

Bob

 

For your reference, these will be joining a BP Leman Ulta Slim Grand Date, Chronoswiss Regulateur 24, GO Panomatic Lunar, IWC Aquatimer 2000 and a JLC Reserve de Marche.

 

Personally, I would hesitate a lot between the Breguet and the Panerai...

The Panerai is perhaps the most elegant of the 3, with a very clean and well balanced dial. Its size will allow most of the human wrists to wear it.

The Breguet has some Heritage behind him, with a strong history, and no date ( on this model ) which IMO, ruins a bit the dial.

The Chronoswiss has a strong ( maybe too strong ) perrsonality.

I think I would go for the Breguet.

Best,
Nicolas.

The better movement and better history (as Nicolas said) is with the Breguet... and probably the best design too... but I find that watch quite small, in terms of how it wears, not actual size. When I wore it in an AD, it felt very unsubstantial. So for me this eliminates it. I find the Chronoswiss altogether unpleasing visually, and resale with this one too, will hurt the most. (hey, it matters, even if we don't want it to.) I'm not a Panny man, but I'd go with the Panerai among these choices pretty easily. Have fun, good luck.

I will say though--just to convolute my opinion uh... I don't like valjoux 7750 movements, or any derivative... which the Panerai does have. They are annoying in how they stutter and jump... and the hard-click way they engage... Soooooo.... Maybe Breguet is best here... This message has been edited by Mostel on 2011-06-25 14:07:26 If you are buying the Breguet new... for that money... A Daytona is vastly superior in terms of movement, and dare I say, in all ways? Sorry, no help today! This message has been edited by Mostel on 2011-06-25 14:10:41

Mostrel,

Thanks for your thoughts.  I had heard that many Valjoux based chronos have that hard click due to poor (or long) pusher designs through the case. My only experience is with a Sinn 756 DIapal and it is exactly as you describe. Perhaps as you say, it is inherent in the movement?

Regarding the Daytona, there is something about a Tachometer that turns me off (I don't use it). The larger Breguet has a date which is not something that I seek in this watch. I did consider a Breitling Transocean and a Zenith El Primero Pilot as well, but the Breitling also has a tach and the Zenith in the end didnt excite me.

Thanks,

Bob

Hi Bob,

I see that you have no objection towards 7750 and furthermore you mentioned about swiming and etc.

I would rather susgest you this Iwc fully rubberize watch.It's skin friendly and tough aswell.....outdoor especially,regardless of heat and water resistence.....

Thanks.

BHK9

BHK9,

Thanks for your suggestion.  My dive watch is a IW3535-05 (white dial) Aquatimer 2000.  This watch while a chronograph and finished differently in rubber is just too close to my diver. I am also looking for a smaller watch.  My AT is 43.5 mm in diameter with a 45.5 mm bezel.  I suspect with the vulcainized rubbler the galapagos is even larger.

Thanks,

Bob

Hi Bob,

Since you have the aquatimer then is quite simillar to the galapagos i have susgessted.....the are from the same familt,then Extreme World Chrnono from JLC with safety locks on the chrono pusher???I dont have the picture for chrono,how about these just for your viewing,

well like i mentioned,thiese picture is not a chrono version but i know there is chrono version available.

Happy shopping....

BHK9

Nicolas,

I agree with you about not liking dates on chronograph dials. Its funny, heritage doesn't factor that much into with me.  In the case of these three, it is Swatch Group and Richemont (two large publicly held giants) vs. a small independent company run by a master watchmaker who has made a go of it for 26 years.  I guess its perspective?

Bob

What you wrote drives us to another perspective, indeed, and agree with you that it is not trhe most important thing to take in consideration.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Best, Bob.

Nicolas

 

Chronoswiss rules itself out...simply unappealing to me. Between the breguet n Pam, I prefer the breguet. Sports watches need not be giant size, arguably, if one is involved in vigorous sports, a smaller watch runs less risk of being banged around. Metal bracelet also a plus door sport watches. Lemania movement holds some romance as well, plus the history of the Aeronovale. Lastly, I humbly opine there are better Pam chronos.

Best, Horo

Horo,

Which ones do you like?

 

Thanks,

Bob

8 Days GMT Chrono Monopulsante...... manual winding, 8 days PR, 4 Hz, second reset, GMT, 3 barrels, column wheels. The 311 and 275 all feature this caliber. But the cheapest PAM with this movement is from the Ferrari series ones..think FER 20 or something.

Best, and good luck hunting.

Horo

One day you will wake up,  you will face the Chronoswiss and you will say: but how could I buy a watch with such crown ? And the honeymoon will be over.

About the Panerai, well, I find it boring and I much prefer the PAM 288.

At the end, if the Breguet is not a breathtaking watch for my taste, there is nothing really wrong with it except the usual problem with the minutes counter...

Fx

Fx,

I looked at the PAM 288 is 45 mm (large) and has a tachometer (which I do not use or like). Why do you prefer that model? On the Breguet, do you mean that the minute counter counts every 2 minutes vs. every minute?  The Chonoswiss actually has 1 minute markers on the 30 minute counter.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Bob

The graduation of the 30mn counter is very disturbing. They wished to keep the original scale but... I really think inappropriate, especially with the behaviour of the hand.

About the Pam288, it is mainly for aesthetical reasons. But when I compare them, I really prefer the 288, I find it beautiful, even if it is very thick. The one of your selection is a bit too bland for my taste.

Fx

No message body

... you have to decide for yourself ... like a big boy ... .

Filip This message has been edited by bimbeano on 2011-06-25 16:18:57

No message body

Definitely the Panerai out of those choices.

Other PAM chronos to have a look at are the PAM214, 288, and the much loved (by yours truly)the PAM163.

Adds some pizzaz and relieves the shiny look worries.

Mike

like you mention, it woud be a great addition to your collection. I saw this model yesterday at my AD and was impressed. Its size isn't overwhelming, but it looks great on the wrist, even when compared to larger, 44mm PAMs.

haven't strapped on this model, but have tried on a 42mm Rad--and it was very refined......

J

I wouldn't go with any of them given with your situation.

No on chronoswiss since you already have one from this brand.

No on panerai. How on earth are you gonna swim with a radiomir. A rubber strap on it would look ridiculous!

That left you with breguet. It is nice but hardly the sporty look you are looking for.

How about the Rolex daytona ref 116520. The price is not ton crazy compare to a few years back and robustness of a Rolex watch is well known. You may pay a little more but what you get is years of problem free repair. It will surely last for a life time.

IMOP the current stainless steel daytona model look and feel sportier than the breguet. It suit fit your criteria nicely.

I know that means going out of your original choice. Maybe it can also be in your consideration

Best
Tyler

No message body

Hi Bob,

I own both a Breguet Type XX and a Panerai Radiomir (but not the Chronograph). My assessment as follows:

1. Chronoswiss: there is only one situation where i could see myself wearing the Chronoswiss: in the cockipit of a vintage roaster, having the chronswiss strapped on my arm over a leather jacket. For all other situations, the design seems not fitting to me.

2. Breguet. Great history as chronograph made for the french marine pilots. Good, wearable size (for me), fits well with a shirt and a suit but also looks good with a pair of jeans and a leather jacket.  there are two versions in the same size (Aeronavale and Transatlantique) with different finish of the case and bezel, and also a different dial. The choice is yours.  A larger version with brown dial (type XXI) is also available. Lemania movement.

3. Panerai: i love my Radiomir and it gets a lot of wristtime. Part of the attraction is the case with is both large but rather thin (for my Blackseal). Same as for the Breguet, it is a watch that i can wear both for business and leasure. Maybe chronographs are not quite what is in line with Penarai's history but if you like the watch, that doesnt matter.

best,

 

stefan

 

Hi,

While I can appreciate the quality of  a Daytona 116520 there are just a couple aspects that make it a "no" for me

1) The Tachnometer on the bezel is not something I like or use (same on a Omega Speedy)

2) The aesthetic of the silver chapter rings sub-registers on the black dial are not my cup of tea (like it on the on a white dial)

3) Lastly, it is 20% more expensive based on list pricing which places the "street price" about 40% higher than the Breguet

Regarding the Breguet options, all of the larger Type XXI chronographs have dates at 6 o'clock which I feel disturbs the aesthetics of the dial.  The Titanium Type XX is a Transatlantique also with a date.  That leaves 3 Type XX models without dates:

1) 3800ST/92/9W6 Type XX Aeronavale on a leather band

2) 3800ST/92/SW9 Type XX Aeronavale on a Bracelet

3) 3803ST/92/4W6 Type XX Aeronavale 100th Annivesary on a leather band

I suspect the later will have limited availability, which likely puts you back at deciding between the two 3800s.

I do appreciate your perspectives on both the PAM and the Chronoswiss. I suspect that the PAM00369 will be difficult to find given that it was just introduced at SIHH 2011.

There also was a Zenith model that was a potential keeper.

Zenith El Primero Pilot (Image below courtesy of Marcus Hanke). The El Primero movement is attractive and the single minute increments on the minutes sub-register, but I suspect Zenith is using C1 superluminova given the whiteness of the dial decoration.  The Breguet appears to use C7 (blue lume which should be >2x brighter, but the Zenith has more surface area which may counter this assumption). I had also heard some not so good stories about Zenith and LVMH service issues from some Zenith ADs a few years back that scared me a bit (You hear these about all brands outside of Rolex).

What do you guys think of the Pilot and the current state of Zenith as a company to deal with (post ownership)?

 

Bob

 

Still prefer the Breguet. Thou the Zeneith's faster beat rate movement is pretty neat.

Have you seen the Breguet type XXII 3880 ST by the way?

An interesting piece, but 72,000 bph it's a sprinter and likely not a marathoner without some tremendous factory support.  As an engineer though, it is quite an achievement.

 

. . . with Zenith's service department, there are a few pertinent comments I can make.

First, the warranty on Zenith is for three years. I'm not sure about your original choices, but three years is more than most, Omega being the only exception to my knowledge. That doesn't help much if the level of customer service isn't commendable, but it's a factor to consider.

Second, the El Primero is a well-established movement with a long track record, and finding an independent watchmaker to work on one outside of warranty should be fairly easy for a long time to come. One of our regular participants, mrsnak, had his '90s vintage El Primero serviced locally without issues, and at a reasonable cost as well.

Finally, there have been no complaints regarding service or the reliability of the El Primero registered as of yet on our Zenith forum. While not evidential, it is remarkable. My guess is that in just over four years, I've had to field about ten complaints regarding reliability issues with G O. Not a peep from Zenith in half a year.

I'm hoping it will stay that way!

Cordially, Art