ThomasM
[PuristS]
14331
so is this a PANERAI problem or an INDUSTRY problem?
So is this a PANERAI problem or an INDUSTRY problem?
hi, Sergio, I am very familiar with the "industry" aspect of the issue - the dropping of the term " waterproof" for the weaker "water-resistant"; the issues of surface tension, "surfactance" and other ambient conditions like soapy water, heat, motion (as in how motion increases effective atmospheric pressure, etc)
I call bullshit on the GENERAL statement by any number of "EXPERT Horologers" (our own dear Nicolas nothwithstanding, of course
) that a 30m WR rated watch, with "FRESH" and properly installed seals, CANNOT be worn to "SWIM in a pool" - assuming the pool is anything like any pool I know, which generally depth out at 30 feet, or c. 10m. I don't swim, but have worn Nautilus, Aquanauts, Royal Oaks and Offshores, as well as Rolex into pools, fully submerged, without issues. I know of many water loving friends who DO swim do the same, and with many other 30m WR rated watches, without incident. including Panerai and yes, Rolex. Above CRITICALLY assumes FRESH SEALS, PROPERLY INSTALLED.
Whether ALL Panerai should be WR rated to (300) m and should be able to "DIVE" to 100m, according to some " Paneristi", is a related but separate issue, involving many more issues than actual specifications and real world performance.
(BTW not many people remember or even ever knew this, but I owned Paneristi.com for a year, after Guy passed it to me to take care of, and I then passed it on to Paddy, et al. That's also where I met Anthony Tsai, who is now general manager and equity partner here on WatchProSite / PuristSPro)
I'm all for a fun and light hearted "sacred cow roast" ( a long time tradition here on PuristsS, btw) but when specific quantitative specifications are being questioned and impugned, as it was beginning to be here in this thread, we have to be a little more rigourous and serious about the matter, here on WatchProSite / PuristSPro.
So is the issue specific to Panerai, or industry wide?
is it true that a 30m WR rated watch, cannot, should not, be worn swimming in a pool, without risking serious water ingress and damage? assuming it has fresh seals, properly installed?
broader issues worthy of serious discussion are
what "xx(xx) m water resistance" actually means;
should a brand like Panerai who stakes so much of its heritage on divers and combat marines create models that can't "dive" under any reasonable use of the term?
I look forward to reading...
cheers,
TM
ps: welcome to the team
edited to add paragraph breaks
This message has been edited by ThomasM on 2016-07-19 06:34:44
PANERAI Luminor Due - I love the new thinner proportions
Panerai's are thick and chunky. But do they have to be? The new Due (pronounced "DO-Ay") is a wonderfully elegant evolution of the iconic Luminor... ...
Really like the design and proportions
The only thing bothering me is the WR. Not that it needs more than 30m per se but for Panerai, especially with the protected crown design of the Luminor, more would have been natural, right? As it is it feels a bit of form without function... Apart from t...
I also like the thinner Panerai, quite a bit...
and I think it's going to be a humongous hit, for Panerai's P&L. I've never given much importance to the WR of each model and the 30mt doesn't bother me that much. After all, these are..street watches. Panerai produces a fair bit of models for the...deep ...
I agree fully
That the watch will do wonders for their P&L Just that with a brand so strongly based in diving watches, with the features all in principle there, a better WR would be a bit more consistent with the message...
For some of us, the..entrance..of Panerai in
the main stream, it's a bit more difficult (to fathome) than others. Having gotten out of the..cult niche..has it's price to be paid. As recently as 15 years ago, when you wanted a PANERAI, you went and bought yourself a PANERAI. When the brand got out of...
I'm familiar with the..saying..of course,
in this case, though, we are..hopeful..(at least I am) that Panerai will not always compromise on "minimum standards", as years go bye. After all, hope springs eternal, doesn't it? Ciao
Which is weird (the 30m)
Because my 574 has got 100m and is thin too (without that anti-water-lever). Strange choice. If I were the boss of Panerai every PAM would have a minimum of 100m. In order to justify the submarines and divers.
Thinness is very underrated as far as wearing comfort, IMO
At least for me, thinness is usually more important than overall diameter.
Nice! Thank you for sharing!
Love the thinner case but I kept thinking about the DNA.. Personally, I find my 372 perfect. Certainly not too thick visually compare to say a 312 1950 case. HAGWE.. Cheers! .. James
If you live in Singapore...
where the speed limit is...90 km/h, 120 it's more than enough, no?
The power inside makes it attractive ...
... even if it's never released. Nobody would ever buy a Ferrari with a top speed of 120 km/h. For pure transport function, any car will do. In Singapore, and in the rest of the world. Why do people buy a watch that has a depth rating of 4000 meters? Beca...
Of course, I was just pulling your leg....
I'm a bit more..pragmatic..in my old age and youthful idealism, escapes me these days. To principle, I prefer hard, cold...logic. If I can't use a watch at 300 meters of depth (being a diver myself) why bother having one?
Thoughts on the new 9010 caliber movement. It seems to be thinner but the same WR. I have the 535, I love it, sometimes I wish it was a little thinner. But I agree the allure of the brand is its history and relationship to the water.
Knowing what the watch is capable of is definitely appealing.
Is there a technical reason...
... why they didn\'t get at least WR 60m to 100m out of it? Best, Thomas
No, there is no..technical reasons...
the materials are the same, just the..little bit extra..which is considered unnecessary on the part of Panerai for these models. Sometimes we "forum-mongers" forget that in the real world, out there, there are 2 or 3 people that undertand about water resi...
You simply have to take care that...
... this special model doesn\'t get too much rain
I think if the watch could literally go down to 30m...
That would be fine; but doesn\'t 30m WR really mean only "ok" for rain? It doesn\'t actually mean the watch can support a water pressure of 30m? ... That is the root of the frustration given the history of Panerai and this model is equipped with a crown g...
I visited the Panerai plant in Neuchatel...
last week. The "person in charge" told me that 30m WR means the watch can ACTUALLY be used in 30+10% meters under the sea. But hey, what do I know?
No, really...but as I wrote: what do I know?
the water resistance of a watch has never interested me. I have been a keen diver for some 30 years (although recently I've given up) and I've never dove with a...watch
My humble interpretation:
You are allowed to get 30m NEAR the water . Seriously: I never would swim with my Patek. And it declares 30m WR too.
That is also beyond my comprehension. But I'm afraid to ask...
since the explanation might have little to do with any logic I would recognoise..hahahahaha What I believe in, intrinsically, is having any Water Resistance test/service done to any watch..before..I swim with it. That goes for 300-500-1000mt certified wat...
I'm a little confused by these comments...
Hi, Sergio, Mico, MTR, all, I'm a bit confused by all the double entendres - is there a known history for Panerai 30m rated watches, with good and properly installed seals, to NOT withstand basic swimming submersion? Or is the apparent snideness some insi...
30 meters, it is just the basic water resistance. you can wash your hands with it.
But you cannot swim with it. The pressure of the water when you just swim is too important for a 30 meters WR watch. 100 meters or 10 ATM ( the same ) is required for that. Best, Nicolas
I share your puzzlement and also believe that....
if you certify a watch for 30meters water resistance, you should be able to strap it on your wrist and after donning scuba gear and DIVE to maximum 30meters of depths. This for some..arcane and not easily understandable (to ME) reasons..it's not so. Hence...
If the Panerai guy said you can
You can. At least I would think so. Who would know better?? Maybe we (you) / someone should send them an email for confirmation!
It wouldn't help, I'm sure.
After all, Panerai ENGRAVES the WR limit on the case of every watch. This notwithstanding, the whole "merry-go-round" is still spinning out of control.
so is this a PANERAI problem or an INDUSTRY problem?
So is this a PANERAI problem or an INDUSTRY problem? hi, Sergio, I am very familiar with the "industry" aspect of the issue - the dropping of the term " waterproof" for the weaker "water-resistant"; the issues of surface tension, "surfactance" and other a...
Thanks a lot. Although I believe...
it is an industry wide phenomenon,.I also believe that, where Panerai is concerned, the tones are a bit harsher because of the percieved heritage of the company. The true purists, would like to litterally "freeze" the Heroic phase of the company's history...
My personal explanation
It is one thing to put a watch in a chamber containing STATIC water/pressure in an "artificial environment" and a complete different matter to withstand the impacts when MOVING in water. Therefore WR 100 meter is recommended for swimming. IMHO (I\'m not a...
I think water resistance on a Panerai is like off-road capability of a Jeep
As others have stated, expectations are higher from the true fans than they are from the average buyer nowadays. When the marketing people want to "water down" the Water Resistance OR off-road capability to save money and appeal to a broader audience, it ...
Listen
When you buy a car and the manufacturer states it can reach 200 km/u top speed. It reaches 200 km/u. So if a watch manufacturer states 30m, you should be able to dive 30m deep with it. Simple. Logical. If it\'s any different it means we are being fooled.
Are we fooling ourselves?
One situation I read on a watch website said, "Imagine yourself on vacation, hot on the sand or deck getting suntanned; you decide to cool off and jump into the lake or ocean. You suddenly immerse your hot black-dialed steel watch in very cold water which...
Does it say in the manual that you can't jump in the water during summer?!?
That would be ridiculous now wouldn\'t it?
Lol for a very very long time top speed claims
Were usually optimistic; most were 10-25% higher than any factory tune could hope to achieve. Though less common today, the over statement is still not unusual. But this is only a non-rigorous analogy to the matter at hand... I stand by my earlier stateme...
200kmph or 30mWR
Would you expect your 200kmph car achieve that speed safely on ICE, SNOW, RAIN, GRAVEL and finally RACE TRACK equally? That is exactlt what ISO numbers and Diver WR are
That's exactely what they replied...
but I don't want to "sell" this to anyone. I'll just live with their assurance PS 30m means 30+10% - 50m means 50+10% etc etc
Very good!!
Now I would like to get the same confirmation (or confession that they are \'fooling\' us) from all other brands. I was so disappointed when I contacted JLC asking them to confirm the 100m on my new Tribute to Deep Sea. Their reply was; you can swim and s...
Here is the ISO 22810 standard ("Trail Rating" for water resistance)
THIS COMES FROM ISO and applies to ordinary watches ISO has created a watch water resistance specification ISO 22810:2010 Testing of a watch consists of: 1. Resistance when immersed in water at a depth of 10 cm. Immersion of the watch in 10 cm of water fo...