Horological Meandering

Good day all. When one sees a watch for sale "complete, with boxes and papers" what can one expect? Box and papers related to the watch in question? Box related to "a" watch? Papers related to a catalogue of watches of which none are related to the watch ... 

Francois, From any reputable or honest seller, "box and papers" with no additional qualifiers means the original box for the watch and the warranty papers, instruction booklet, or any other printed matter shipped with the watch. Sometimes the seller will ... 

This is exactly what I thought, one should reasonably expect from such statement. Now and I apologise for been a pain, what does "open papers" mean? I will detail my experience a little later. Thank you again and kind regards. Francois

is un-named and undated I think.

Which also means the goodies, when thre are some, like a book, a loupe, gloves, and so on... But the box, the outer box, the warranty papers, the certificate ( if there is any ), this is a minimum. Best, Nicolas

..it seems like common sense, isn't it? So, to recap. and if I understand well, "papers or open papers" mean, owner's manual for the actual watch been sold! Warranty and certificate (papers showing the watch caliber, metal, serial number etc.!?) for the a... 

recently I saw a watch for sale on the Purist Collectors Market, the watch was been sold by a Purist. There were 2 pictures of the watch and it was stipulated "near mint condition with boxes/papers. I contacted the vendor to ask for the best price, and th... 

But at least you have a chance to have the manual instructions for your dish machine! :) Your watch is really splendid, and I am sure you will enjoy it, but your seller should have presented things in a fairer way, for sure. Best, my friend. Nicolas.

I think that any seller should just present the facts..as they are! End of story. Soon one will have to contact a lawyer to draw-up some kind of document which will stipulate that such "word" in this "context" means "this" but if used when the wind is blo... 

...and things like loupes and gloves as gifts really only came into being in recent years. Others have given you correct advice. Box and instruction/warranty papers obviously need to be the ones that came with the watch. Some, but not all, will give you a... 

It would be frustrating to be promised one thing and receive something different. I have also previously bought watches in a different but similar set up. One watch that I have came with a box that doesn't belong to the that particular watch, I wouldn't g... 

From the moment I was made aware of by the vendor, but the papers! That's was the straw which broke the camel's back, as far as I am concerned. Cheers, Francois

Francois, You are taking this in a most gentlemanly way. I would not be as gentle. It appears that the seller cheated you. Whether he did so knowingly depends on his experience selling watches. If he was selling his father's watch and has no knowledge of ... 

I am not a gentleman, just a normal human being who doesn't like to pick a fight, just taking life as it comes, the good with the bad, sometimes there are good waves sometimes bad waves and sometimes come the sharks. Another day, another lesson learned...... 

but just because one buys from a collector/enthusiast forum doesn't mean there is a guarantee of performance :-( Whether shopping on Fleabay or Purists, one should practice the same due dilligence! I know from hard experience that dealers are active on th... 

Cheers, Francois

I have seen this used in two ways by grey market dealers – either no information on the warranty at all, or an Authorised Dealers name/stamp, but no date. This implies that some of the product is excess from the dealers and the grey marketer is acting as ... 

Yes it is a pitty not to have the box but in the end..well the box would just collect dust...LOL! But to be fair, the vendor told me about the box, what really makes my blood boil is the complete lack of papers, well, I am lying there are papers but not r... 

... your local GP Authorised Dealer for service questions, but the Australian importer is based in Sydney. I can put you in touch if required. Girard-Perregaux have a very good Patrimony Department that will provide certificates of authenticity and dates ... 

Kind regards, Francois

but at least you have provided enough information that I can work out who the seller is and that is valuable information to have. Thank you. I am sorry to read your story. The term "Purist" is bandied about too often on this forum, when often it just mean... 

I will not name and shame that person, he will surely recognise himself if he reads this thread. My aim was purely for self interest, wanting to know what was correct from the Watch Lovers, "Purists" view point. I now have the understanding that ethic is ... 

In it's own way to name and shame, without having to mention any individuals!! Hopefully, it may lead to a positive outcome? Regards Tony

Francois I have stated clearly in our email communications before we closed the deal that the box was not original and that the papers were open. I was not aware that your understanding of the term open papers is different from mine. It is a rather common... 

Therefore, open papers are still related to the model of the watch, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

I admit to having overlooked putting the word open in the ad. But this is an irrelevant point because in the email communications between Francois and me I had made it clear that the papers were open. Open papers means either papers that are blank. Watch ... 

. . . but I would like to make one comment. This discussion is beginning to remind me of the Monica Lewinsky scandal that enveloped President Clinton when he claimed that he did not have sex with "that woman". After evidence emerged that contradicted his ... 

in your expert opinion, what does open papers mean specifically for this GP watch? How about for, say, a Zenith Chronomaster (since you are a Zenith moderator)? Is information of the watch printed on a GP/Zenith warranty card straight from the factory lik... 

. . . as the nub of the issue, as stated by François and not denied as of yet by yourself, is the absence of any documentation that originated with the watch. This is what I received with my Zenith El Primero New Vintage 1969 . . . . . . when I purchased ...  

Gary to my question, does the watch comes with box and papers as mentioned in the ad, you replied : "The watch does come with box/open papers but it is not the original huge box with nine compartments. It is a small box as I believe the watch was bought f... 

So as Gary points out in an e-mail to me yesterday (e-mail below), "open papers" does not mean they need to belong to the watch in question! That's my problem, English is not my mother tongue, French is.....therefore the only explanation is "something was... 

GP warranty cards, as with those from other brands, come as blank cards. The information of the watch is filled in by hand. Now, open means no dealer information and no date, so technically I could have entered the info about the watch on the card and the... 

As I have said previously, I have received your "open papers" which consist of : 1) A little brochure/catalogue explaining how the GP started etc. with pictures of the collection 1998/99 in which the watch I bought from you is no represented. 2) An instru... 

Francois Your interpretation of open papers obviously is different from mine and that is OK. I am offering you a full refund but you have not responded with a decision but only told me that "you are not unhappy with the purchase" and that " you do not thi... 

As I have written to you yesterday, I do not wish a refund as I am very happy with the WATCH I have purchased, I only felt disappointed with your "OPEN PAPERS". I also suggested that instead of refund, perhaps you could join in for the cost of archives pa... 

. . . and any further communication between the principals will take place privately. I hope this dispute is satisfactorily resolved without further discussion on HoMe. Regarding the discrepancy between differing interpretations of the term "open papers",... 

Francois I am willing to offer a refund ie reverse the transaction but i cannot offer to help pay for thr archive papers because i maintain that i have provided you with accurate information. It is a matter of principle not money as otherwise i would not ...