Horological Meandering

Good day all. When one sees a watch for sale "complete, with boxes and papers" what can one expect? Box and papers related to the watch in question? Box related to "a" watch? Papers related to a catalogue of watches of which none are related to the watch in question? Papers, as "news papers, i.e. Le Monde, The New York Time, The Guardian etc.? Then, what does "open papers" mean. It sound silly but it is a genuine question.

Looking forward to your knowledgeable replies.

Cheers

 

Francois

  This message has been edited by Dr No on 2012-07-21 22:42:31

Francois,

From any reputable or honest seller, "box and papers" with no additional qualifiers means the original box for the watch and the warranty papers, instruction booklet, or any other printed matter shipped with the watch.  Sometimes the seller will say "a box," which is a subtle way of indicating that it is not the original box.

Of course, disreputable or dishonest sellers could mean any box and any paper, in an effort to defraud the buyer.

Park

 

This is exactly what I thought, one should reasonably expect from such statement. Now and I apologise for been a pain, what does "open papers" mean? I will detail my experience a little later. Thank you again and kind regards. Francois

is un-named and undated I think.

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Which also means the goodies, when thre are some, like a book, a loupe, gloves, and so on...

But the box, the outer box, the warranty papers, the certificate ( if there is any ), this is a minimum.

Best,

Nicolas

..it seems like common sense, isn't it? So, to recap. and if I understand well, "papers or open papers" mean, owner's manual for the actual watch been sold! Warranty and certificate (papers showing the watch caliber, metal, serial number etc.!?)  for the actual watch been sold!  Nicolas, shall I? Merci. Francois

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recently I saw a watch for sale on the Purist Collectors Market, the watch was been sold by a Purist. There were 2 pictures of the watch and it was stipulated "near mint condition with boxes/papers. I contacted the vendor to ask for the best price, and then made an offer subject to the watch having box and papers. The reply came saying that the box was not the original but that there was a box and yes the papers were with it, there were "open papers", I then agreed to make the purchase, sent the money and eventually received the watch and the box and the papers. Now, the box, ok I new the box was not original, that's fine but what about the papers? I had in front of me an old small catalogue of that brand of watch but the catalogue was older than the watch I had purchase, hence my watch was not even shown on it, then an owner's manual also older than my watch, hence of not use for me as it was for other models. I thought that there might have been a mix-up with the papers but was told by returned e-mail by the vendor that he had stipulated "open papers" which means just that "open"! So, according to my understanding "open" meant "open to your own imagination..LOL!" I am very happy with the watch which is in near mint condition and works very well and is gaining/loosing about 10 second per week but it does need a service, that's fine with me. I am also used to purchase watches without papers, that's fine when it is stipulated as such but I think it is very dishonest to stipulate "papers or open papers" when papers in this case mean just that...papers with no relation to the object been sold. I wish the papers coming with this watch would have been the owner's manual for my dish washing machine as I have missplaced the originals.

Kind regards. Francois

 

But at least you have a chance to have the manual instructions for your dish machine!

Your watch is really splendid, and I am sure you will enjoy it, but your seller should have presented things in a fairer way, for sure.

Best, my friend.

Nicolas.

I think that any seller should just present the facts..as they are! End of story. Soon one will have to contact a lawyer to draw-up some kind of document which will stipulate that such "word" in this "context" means "this" but if used when the wind is blowing "east-north" and the age of the captain is over 42 it "could" mean "that" but exceptionally if......and so on....LOL Good for you Nicolas...And yes this piece is very beautiful, I love it more and more and will get some papers, The Papers,  when I give it for service. 

Kind regards, Francois

...and things like loupes and gloves as gifts really only came into being in recent years.

It would be frustrating to be promised one thing and receive something different.

From the moment I was made aware of by the vendor, but the papers! That's was the straw which broke the camel's back, as far as I am concerned. Cheers, Francois

Francois,

You are taking this in a most gentlemanly way.  I would not be as gentle.  It appears that the seller cheated you.  Whether he did so knowingly depends on his experience selling watches.  If he was selling his father's watch and has no knowledge of the business, perhaps he was merely negligent, but if he is a regular participant on the watch sites, this is fraud.  The difference in value between irrelevant papers and the correct papers you had every right to expect can be substantial.  On a modern watch from one of the top brands, the difference can be thousands of dollars--enough to pay for the servicing.

In a perfect world, the authorities would be willing to investigate his fraud if he does not make things right (with a partial refund) when given the chance to do so.  Sadly, unless the transaction occurred within one country, the authorities at your location will probably tell you to contact the authorities at the seller's location and vice versa.  Interpol is too busy chasing terrorists and fugitives to worry about your watch papers.  There is a site on which you can tell your story including the name of the seller, which may be all you can do to expose him and protect others.

I deal with criminals for a living and believe that the more they are permitted to prey on the kind and gentle people without consquence, the more emboldened they become to repeat and escalate their misdeeds.

Park

 

I am not a gentleman, just a normal human being who doesn't like to pick a fight, just taking life as it comes, the good with the bad, sometimes there are good waves sometimes bad waves and sometimes come the sharks. Another day, another lesson learned...hopefully!

Kind regards, Francois

but just because one buys from a collector/enthusiast forum doesn't mean there is a guarantee of performance :-(  Whether shopping on Fleabay or Purists, one should practice the same due dilligence!  I know from hard experience that dealers are active on the forums to buy and sell.  Some are outstanding, some are not.  As has been mentioned, it shouldn't bother the good ones to respond to any meaningful questions and provide photos...and those that are really upfront will have all necessary details and pics in the original listing, right?  Those that hold back do so because they want to make contact and "sell" their product rather than let the product sell itself, so I don't feel troubled by asking as many Qs or requesting additional photos as necessary.  Any excuses or unwillingness (the watch is in my bank safe and I can't get it out, blah blah) means I walk away...

Cheers, Francois

I have seen this used in two ways by grey market dealers – either no information on the warranty at all, or an Authorised Dealers name/stamp, but no date. This implies that some of the product is excess from the dealers and the grey marketer is acting as a conduit or perhaps a broker. What this means for the warranty on a ‘new’ watch is a bit murky. And some of these watches have been used as demonstrators in the AD’s or have potentially been sitting in window displays in the blazing sun for months on end.

I am very wary of grey market sellers. For every positive story there is a negative story. You have to take into consideration watch desirability/availability, cost, warranty, and unknown wear and tear. Even if the $$ savings are considerable you can often expect service costs. Personally I prefer to purchase from fastidious collectors that I trust, but I know that is not always an option.

Sorry to hear about your box issue too, as that anniversary model came in a beautiful lacquer Ferrari box.

However ...

... fantastic complicated GP chronograph that I would be proud to wear! I hope you forget about the rest of the transaction when you strap it on.

Andrew

Yes it is a pitty not to have the box but in the end..well the box would just collect dust...LOL! But to be fair, the vendor told me about the box, what really makes my blood boil is the complete lack of papers, well, I am lying there are papers but not related to this particular watch at all. Anyhow, the watch is really something, I love every aspects of it, I will have it serviced next time I go to Geneva and ask for archives papers and perhaps who knows I may find the box for it at a later stage. Do you happen to know if there is a GP representative Down Under?

Cheers, Francois

... your local GP Authorised Dealer for service questions, but the Australian importer is based in Sydney. I can put you in touch if required.

Girard-Perregaux have a very good Patrimony Department that will provide certificates of authenticity and dates of manufacture for your watch. Have a look at the GP website under Service (top left corner of the main page) - Customer Service - Heritage.

Andrew

Kind regards, Francois

but at least you have provided enough information that I can work out who the seller is and that is valuable information to have. Thank you.

I will not name and shame that person, he will surely recognise himself if he reads this thread. My aim was purely for self interest, wanting to know what was correct from the Watch Lovers, "Purists" view point. I now have the understanding that ethic is indeed..universal, no "but" and "if". From all I have read in this great forum for the last 4 years and some great people I have met, this little thread of mine with all the replies it has received, only confirms that there is a great future in the goodness and greatness of human kind. Thank you very much everyone. 

In it's own way to name and shame, without having to mention any individuals!!

Francois

Therefore, open papers are still related to the model of the watch, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

I admit to having overlooked putting the word open in the ad.  But this is an irrelevant point because in the email communications between Francois and me I had made it clear that the papers were open.  

. . . but I would like to make one comment.  This discussion is beginning to remind me of the Monica Lewinsky scandal that enveloped President Clinton when he claimed that he did not have sex with "that woman".  After evidence emerged that contradicted his claim, he adroitly claimed that his definition of "sex" didn't include the act that Monica performed. 

Ahem . . .

I do not claim to be an expert, and neither do I have vast experience in the watch trade.  Nonetheless, the term "open papers" only has meaning in the context of pertinent documents - the papers that originally came with the watch.  And these, from my experience, are never generic. 

If the term "open papers" does indeed have the meaning you suggest between members of the trade, then it is in a sense that serves to conceal the actual condition from buyers rather than to inform them.  If that is the case, usage in that context would be out of place on our Collectors Market trade forum, and in subsequent private communications with potential buyers.

Art