patrick_y
[PuristSPro Moderator]
33554
CNC machines aren't making the anglage. They can make the beveled edge on the plate.
The anglage is polished with humans with a little dentist drill like tool. But the interior angles, those require files, wooden sticks with diamond sandpaper, and more. It's hard to exactly know what everyone is talking about on a chat forum. But it really is normal for a brass movement to have those lines - even a brass movement with a Geneva Seal.
A Technical Discussion: Patek Philippe Caliber 240 VS the Chopard 96.40-L - Two Very Similar Movements Separated by 20 years!
WatchProSite Moderator Patrick_y compares two excellent micro-rotored caliber from two big Swiss independent watch brands. The Patek Philippe 240 Caliber VS the Chopard L.U.C. 96.40-L Caliber. Some of you have asked me to make some comparisons between the...
I think a lot of people think that way!
A lot of people think that way. Sometimes I even think that way. And I think that's putting blinders on. We should be objective! Although, as human beings, sometimes we're not! Thank you for your honesty! But do try to appreciate the Chopard for what it i...
I was in chopard boutique yesterday to drop off some items for repair for my wife.
While their pieces are gorgeous (and I used to have a titanium MM), I was never aware of their price tag. The prices are astronomical. I was shocked.
I concur with Amanico.
Although I do find that the 1860 LUC is SOMEWHAT EXPENSIVE considering it's a steel cased watch. I mean... Considered to the Vacheron Constantin 82172 Traditionelle model, that watch is a 3-hand design in GOLD for the same price as the Chopard. BUT! Some ...
Defenitely Patek has its charm on vintages but if I think of modern ones, a countable few stand out IMHO
While Chopard IMHO is underrated still. I don't know any other brand who does chronometer certification even for their Tourbillons, Full strike MR (same approach for Ferdinand Berthoud). Full Strike is also by far the best MR in market - I understood Mr. ...
The top end of Chopard is really quite special!
The Ferdinand Berthoud and the Minute Repeater are amazing! The vintage pieces from Patek are extremely charming.
Very interesting read Patrick as I did not know the origine of the Chopard movement. I love that you dedicated several comparative dimension to accuracy!
My Chopard XPS, when fully wound, runs within 2 sec/day which I am very pleased with! Thanks for sharing
Wow! That's impressive!
Whomever adjusted and calibrated yours probably spent some extra time! All of those accuracy pursuits are all very time intensive pursuits. The Breguet Overcoil is especially a big deal to many people. In all honesty, that alone really puts this watch abo...
Yes! It's actually not a small deal.
Your watch has it! Yay! Here is a Youtube video that shows you the difference, but doesn't explain why the Breguet system is better. Overall the Breguet system is better because the whole spring breathes and this allows gravitation effects to be less impa...
I'm glad you understood it!
Even this video is not easy to understand without some prior background knowledge. Good job!
Very neat thread, thank you.
What I'm most shocked by are the bevels on the 240. How on earth is Patek not mirror polishing those? They look unbelievably rough...
I recently almost fell into the 3940 rabbit hole.
And reading about the the 240q movement was fascinating. What amazed me the most (and this is well documented) is that Patek made this movement during the quartz crisis. It has certainly been in many of their best watches. And I certainly a movement I adm...
The 240 caliber is a near perfect movement and is the movement that got me excited about movements and inner beauty.
My first watch love was the Jaeger-LeCoultre Reverso. I was so certain that a Reverso was going to be my first watch. Somehow, I met a Patek Philippe 5000R and 6000G which both had the 240 caliber and that did me in - I liked the movement so much that I d...
I don't think this Patek would get a geneva seal!
Which is the whole point of a Patek seal...
That's the thing.
If you look at the photo, it has the Poinçon. I don't know how Patek managed to flop that hard on that movement. I can't say I'm shocked--they're not the pinnacle of watchmaking, but still it's impressive (that they flopped).
Keep in mind, that watches made with German Silver plates can have better anglage than rhodium plated brass plates.
That's as good as the Geneva Seal gets!
That's actually considered very good polishing.
You're looking at the photo from W220 where you can see some "chatter" lines in the polishing. This is normal. The reason why you don't see them on brands such as Lange is because Patek Philippe uses a brass plate that's rhodium plated and Lange uses Germ...
Is it really, though?
I haven't seen that on many Breguets, Armin Stroms, or Czapeks. I know they're not using maillechort. The only time I've seen Breguet lacking is when they use CNC machines to do their bevels. They then turn out to have no interior angles, they have all so...
CNC machines aren't making the anglage. They can make the beveled edge on the plate.
The anglage is polished with humans with a little dentist drill like tool. But the interior angles, those require files, wooden sticks with diamond sandpaper, and more. It's hard to exactly know what everyone is talking about on a chat forum. But it reall...
I mean, that's somewhat true.
Now, like I said, I didn't find marks like on the Patek on my 1315. Perhaps I need even more magnification (but I was using about 7x). However, I'll maintain that anglage can still be performed by machine and often is. Not the great, "true" anglage (i.e.,...
That's a great photo!
That's a great photo. It's not a CNC machine in the second photo. That's still by hand with a spinning tool that looks fairly similar to a spinning dentist drill. Not a CNC machine. The Geneva Seal is still a standard for mass produced watches. Not for to...
Ahh! The Super Rare 5000G!
The 5000R was the first watch from Patek Philippe that I saw with the 240 caliber movement - and the first watch that got me excited about movements! Very nice and rare specimen!
Awesome report, Patrick, as always.
None of the Patek’s that I own or have owned (all with PP deal) have performed within the proposed -2/+3 criteria, and I’m talking about a 5712 and a 6119R. The lack of hacking seconds on my 5712 always bothered me, as did the “finishing” of the dial and ...
I don't think mine have neither.
I don't think any of my Pateks are in that -2/+3 criteria neither. The lack of a hacking seconds bothers me on my 5712 too! So when it stops, I try to star winding the watch just at the right moment!
Wow.
That's pretty disappointing. Lots of people have special reverence for Patek, but I've never understood it. It's not like they're MG/GF/LF/L&H/ when it comes to finish... You're probably right that it's down to the scale of production.
Hahahaha.
It seems that that's common...people seem to defend brands' practices even when confronted with solid information contrary to their view. Let's hope the mafia spares you (and myself, to an extent).
Look at the first response on this thread...
Gary_g said there's Patek and there's everything else... Not to point fingers at Gary_g, but there are a lot of people who think that way. Most of the time it's unwarranted. I call it "wearing blinders."
A large part of watch collecting is emotional and subjective. Patek doesn’t tend to treat it’s customers well, and was one of the first haute horology manufacturers to offer the whole continuum
(From SS nautilus to multi-multi-complications). It doesn’t make their finishing the best or their movements the most accurate or efficient. But it can certainly make its collectors (like Gary_g) hold it in the highest regard for many-a-good reason. note:...
Oh. FPJ movement decoration is NOT THAT GOOD!
FPJ isn't bad. But it's not that good. In some areas, I'd say it's lower than Patek. But it's a cool looking watch. That thin French elegance and design is definitely special! I like it!
I'd also say that the 5270 vs a Lange Datograph is actually not that different.
What's more different is the style. The German style IS EXTREMELY DECORATIVE and looks EXTREMELY DECORATIVE. The Swiss-French style is nearly just as decorative but it doesn't look as nice - especially brass movements vs German silver movements. So I'd sa...
I own both the 403035 Dato and the 5270G and I 100% concur on this notion.
More highly decorated does not necessarily equate to higher levels of finishing.
Those are two amazing pieces.
I wouldn't know what to wear every morning. Probably the Patek since if that stopped, it'd be harder to set!
LOL !
Good point, when I return from holidays and pick up the 5270 from the vault I always schedule a "winding session", where I turn the crown for minutes on end until everything is aligned again. Not the most fun thing to do but I prefer it over pressing on t...
Ahh! Winding session!
I've done that before. Yes, literally winding the crown for minutes on end.
That's pretty good!
I haven't timed my Pateks. But I don't really pay attention as long as it's not off by a lot. My JLCs seem to run pretty fast, maybe a minute every 2-3 days? But they don't have second hands, so I can't tell for sure.
Patek Philippe is good. But some people put them on a pedestal so high that it's unwarranted.
Patek Philippe is a Mercedes-Benz equivalent. People want to say that it's a Rolls Royce. But it's not. Now. Mercedes Benz does make exceptional cars every now and then.
Highly apt comparison.
I think this is the way to think of their positioning in the market. I think they're almost like the Rolex of the high-end--the default choice that has some occasionally great things going on, but isn't all that the marketing has you believe.
Thanks. I reacted very fast and had the right contact
to order one after its presentation.
You're lucky!
Most people are waiting about a year or so to get it. Although some people have been quoted much longer wait timeframes.
Patrick, thank you so much for this.
I read your thoughtful, detailed analysis several times and learned a lot. I never knew about the history of the micro-rotor. Didn't know they were that old, found in the 1950's. Personally, I fell in love with the L.U.C. 1.96 movement over 20 years ago a...
Drop dead gorgeous!
The 1860 is just such a nice watch. Before 2023, I was trying to find one in any of the 18K gold variants (yellow, white, or rose) in excellent condition, complete, from someone I knew and trusted. Wasn't successful. You really have a wonderful wonderful ...
Is there any practical, functional advantage to a micro rotor (vs. full rotor) beyond being a space-saving mechanism to facilitate a thinner movement?
There's the obvious aesthetic appeal of a micro-rotor, but presumably that didn't matter before the advent of display backs several decades after micro-rotors appeared on the scene. Also, thanks for the kind words about the Chopard 1860/2. The watch in th...
Nope. No major benefit than thinning the movement.
The main thing is to thin the movement. If you only have one barrel and you can get the gear train and escapement all to one side, you have about 25% of the movement left over that's unused. Here, in that 25% you either put in a second barrel or a micro r...
Very helpful explanation.
Other than Laurent Ferrier, do you know of any independents/small brands who've dabbled in micro-rotors in recent years? Yes, PT for the 1860/2. Also WG/salmon dial. "One wear, one spare." ...
Two exquisite watches.
Parmigiani Fleurier, Patek has a new one coming you can see it in the 5235 annual calendar, a bunch of companies like MING are contracting movement makers like Schwartz Etienne to make micro rotor watches, the Bulgari Octo Finissimo micro rotor is still f...
Superb article, my friend. I read it several times! Some thoughts.
I am a super fan of the Cal 240. Which I consider as one of the nicest micro rotor, along with GP ( Tourbillon with gold bridges ), Laurent Ferrier, and... The LUC 96! In terms of finishings, I would rate the LUC 96 above, as every part is finished in thi...
I share your sentiment
I like the 1.96 because I respect Karl and his commitment to get it done right in the 1990s with LUC. Took guts and brains and $$$. I also respect what was done with the patek 240. I believe is that a chap named Gérard Berret from Patek designed the movem...
I agree. Hence why I rated the LUC 96 higher than the 240 Caliber.
65 hours power reserve is definitely impressive for such a small movement such as the LUC 96.
Thanks Patrick for this informative
comparison of two impressive movements. Patek in the late 70s and LUC in the late 90s. They both represent the resolve to forge on with mechanical movements and both have been suitably celebrated in your report. Bravo 👏
RE Bvlgari
One thing to watch out for is the rotor issues on the OG movement in the Octo. Mine stopped working and apparently it was a common problem. They have changed the movement now though.
Mine doesn't work very well.
Still works. But sometimes I walk 15,000+ steps in a day, and I put the watch down at 9PM at night, and when I wake up, I see the watch stopped around 2AM or 3AM at night. Did they fix your watch or did they put in the updated movement?
I’m just catching up on some of the posts here and saw this. Thank you, Patrick! I agree. It’s important to make any brand “earn their position.”
I didn’t know the history of the Chopard LUC 96 movement. I have come to be more and more impressed with Chopard and this further cements the respect and justifiable admiration for their pieces.
Thank you Obeezy for your comment and for posting!
The Chopard movement is definitely quite special. And although the watch is steel, considering the 1860 model and the Alpine Eagle model are both in that 25,000 US dollar range, I'd say they're pretty fairly priced. A steel Patek Philippe Nautilus would c...
Thank you for characterizing the difference between a hairspring with a Breguet overcoil and a flat hairapring.
I haven't been able to do so myself, Chk
Yes! This is commonly overlooked, even by experienced watch collectors!
Most collectors, even those with multi million dollar collections, do not know the difference between a hair spring with a Breguet overcool and a flat hairspring. And it's quite a significant difference.