Officine Panerai

I posted the below as a response to an existing post already yesterday, but think it might just deserve a post of its own. As is clear, my love / passion for Panerai has cooled down significantly. Don't get me wrong, I still think they are very appealing watches and technology is getting better and better as well.

However, I have recently gotten fed up with Panerai structurally not keeping its promises, not delivering on time or not delivering at all. Just wondering whether I am the only one on this forum with that opinion or whether others feel the same way?

Below my response to an earlier post in which I set out why I have decided to jump off the Panerai band wagon (these are two main reasons, but there are more. However, did not want to make this a too long story, so limited the message to the below):

"I have just cancelled my order for the 317 with my dealer. Not just me who is extremely disappointed but my dealer as well, as until two weeks ago Panerai has been telling him that he would still receive the watch (however, they did not say it will be a less appealing version with the smoked glass and not the real-deal 317 K-series. I basically had to provide this information to my dealer, who did some further research, contacted some other dealers and when he had enough comfort that he was right then enquired with Panerai who gave him the news).

I know of various people who, just like me, have cancelled their orders as well, all for the same reasons. And the feeling that prevails is that Panerai has made a joke of themselves recently and even worse: has tried to make a joke out of us: their most loyal customers (and a lot of those unfortunately do not have the luck of living next to a boutique....). Two years of waiting, two years of lies and now trying to 'satisfy' us by giving a lousy smoked glass version?

Then the 339: myself and other collectors I know subscribed for this watch based on an edition of 1000 pieces. This seemed still somewhat rare and therefore somewhat justified a hefty price tag. So I put down a deposit only to learn, completely out of the blue, that Panerai increased the number of pieces to 1500. As the price of the watch was not subsequently revised downwards, I decided to cancel my order for the 339 as well.

The long and the short of it is that Panerai has just lost a long time collector. I have about 15 Pams in my collection and they are being sold as we speak. As for my friends and fellow collectors: I know some of them are doing exactly the same. Some other have decided to still keep their older pieces, but have decided not to purchase any new stuff. Perhaps a bit rigorous, but if you just sit and watch these guys will never learn (not that I expect my solo action will change the world, but at least I have given a signal / made a statement). If this is where my hard-earned money is going to: no thanks I can think of better things.

So bye bye Panerai! It was fun for as long as it lasted."
   

the 339 is something I don't get, just like you

When they say they will make 1000 is is very stupid to increase it to 1500. They should think twice before the make a LE. Once they said 1000 pce it should stay 1000 pce

Same BS with the 341 Egiziano

I hope they won't make these mistakes again

And Frankly, any old Panerai Collector shouldn't be shocked anymore...

They made the same thing with the Cali ( and I don't remember if it was also the case for the 232 ), + the OOR phenomenon ( 127/ 217/ 163/ 203, 92 and a few others ).

No one should buy a LE because it is a LE, but because of the watch.

The most important is the watch, don't you think ?

As for the movement of the 317, which is not blackened anymore, this is another story, and I get the Original Poster's feeling.

Best.

Nicolas This message has been edited by amanico on 2010-07-05 03:11:29

Dear Nicolas,

You are absolutely right about the watch being the most important. All I am saying is that there is a relation between what one is willing to pay for a watch and the number of watches produced. The price for the 339 was rather steep in my opinion, and Panerai tried to justify this by saying that the production process for the case and the R&D that has gone into it was expensive. Now, when you suddenly increase the number of watches by 50%, then I would assume that you can spread out those costs over a larger number of watches which results in a lower cost per unit...

But that has not happened...

Looking at it in a more extreme case, which perhaps best brings out my point: would you pay US$15k if this were a regular production watch?

And if the watch is worth 15 K USD, why not?

It is a long time I don't care about LE or not LE watches.

LE is like marketing, in my opinion.

The Marketing, nor the LE won't make me go on a watch if the watch doesn't sing to me.

Therefore, a watch limited to 1936 pieces ( the 249 ), or 1938 ( the 232 ) is not anymore a LE, to me, as the number of watches made is too important.

My 2 cents.

Best,

Nicolas

I completely agree with the values indicated in Nicolas' post. 

Buy it because you love the watch. 

Sounds like it took you a long time to figure this out...15 PAMS !

6 years of on average 2 pieces a year (although in some years 3 is perhaps more correct and then I sold 1 in some years as well when I came to the conclusion it was not going to be part of the collection going forward) and then I inherited some as well. Clearly, the inherited pieces will remain part of my collection....

But you are right: it took me a while... have given them the benefit of the doubt for a long time.

I totally understand where you're coming from and I also understand why Panerai does the things it does.  Thanks for posting your thoughts since we are always interested in hearing how others feel, whether good or bad.

I do agree with you that if Panerai decides to increase production # of a LE from 1000 to 1500, they should bring down the price a tad.  It's just the right thing to do for their fans.  For their shareholders, they still will be making more profit since the avg cost per unit drops on a 50% increase in production units.

The success that Panerai has experienced just isn't good on our wallets sometimes.  The price we pay for their sucess I guess.

Hope you do come back and visit.

Best,
Anthony

If there is no passion...ups and downs are not there my friend.

I understand your points. Im also disappointed with some things at PAnerai (like OORs...for example), but honestly, this is just because we feel something really special for that brand.
All things you mention...are also happening in other brands, but we are not so "touch" with them.

All around the 317 is really strange. I know they are delivering units these days. One friend of mine waiting 2 years as you didnt get it, and another friend...walking in the Boutique, just got one. Thats not good. Agree.

About the increasing numbers for SEs....its also a bad thing, but I prefer this..than seeing OORs being released lately.

Things have to be better done in many aspects, agree, but my guess is that we will still have ups...and downs for many years!

allowing for the frustration, aggravation and dejection you must be obviously feeling, I thought that the whimsicality and quircks of Panerai were part and parcel of it's aura.....appeal and mistique. Granted I've been a Panerai enthusiast for a very short time (surely compared to you) but one of the reasons why I got stuck with the Bold Ones it's just that. I supposed that Panerai is to the timepieces' world  what the famous....box of chocolate.... is for Forrest Gump, you never know what you're going to get...

Don't be a total stranger and visit us sometimes, ya hear?

Cheers

ps and besides, it's not as if you're buying....horrible,rare watches you can proudly display and will appreciate with times..because...they are so rare. The watches IMO are rather nice (some, bordering on the spectacular) eminently wearable, isn't it?

and disappointment, however, for good or bad Panerai is so popular that I'm sure they feel they can pretty much do what they like. Therefore, if they want to increase production of the 339 by 50% then they will. Similarly, if the want to delay release or change the 317, then they will. And I imagine they expect their buyer to understand or accept the situation.

I own several Panerais and think the historic range are very well designed watches. For me what makes them so appealing is the simplicity of the design. However, I increasingly think that the success of the brand may in the long term be unhealthy for it. People often refer to the 'passion' of the brand and say 'it is more than just a watch'. I have to admit I don't really understand this philosophy.

To me no matter how much I like it, it is 'just a watch'. I Also think that perhaps sometimes the strong desire for a limited model, for example the 339, is labelled as passion. Everybody knows that most Panerai models are difficult to come by, which just makes you want one even more. When you add the historically low name recognition of Panerai in the general public and you can see why those in the know about the brand refer to 'passion'. Personally, I doubt if Panerai collectors/enthusiasts are any more passionate than vintage Rolex collectors or Patek Philipe collector etc. Can you imagine the 'passion' Rolex would have if they released a LE 5514,5517 or PN Daytona?

The reason I think Panerais success may be a long term problem, is that it collectors seem to me to be often less willing to accept any criticism of the brand or the brands CEO. For example, I was shocked when a moderator and collector on another forum replied to a legitimate complaint from a poster about his poor servicing experience with Panerai USA, by saying quite abruptly, 'I have warned everybody that they should not send their watches to Panerai USA, they should be sent to Panaerai Canda so stop complaining' (paraphrase). It was as if it was the poster fault rather than Panerais?

It seems to me that this level of brand loyalty/ passion whatever you want to call it, in fact does the brand no favours in the long run. There comes a point when potential buyers start to think I like the watch, but I am not going to bother buying one because I can't be bothered to put up with the endless waiting/ or poor service/ or change of design etc.

there're a few points that might be worth your thoughts?

#1

Let's take a quick look at OP's limited edition pieces that were either NEW in casing design or dimention at the time of release and NOT limited by the movement supply:

PAM52, the first 40mm Luminor Chronograph with zenith movement, limited run of 500 pieces.   Followed by:  PAM72/74, 121/122, 105, 108.  (I didn't list 168 as it was fitted with different movement but you get the idea!)

PAM64 1000m submersible, limited run of 500 pieces.  Probably another 2000 pieces or so of basically the same watch as PAM87.

PAM76 Luminor blackseal w/ cover, 300 pieces initially then all these variations of JV, Purdeys, Sealand, Shanghai boutique editions( urgh! )    *Not even sure if this truely qualifies as it's probably just new tooling from bezel level up so overall cost probably not as high as a truely new design*

PAM127 1950 Luminor, 1950 pieces then 1000 pieces of 217 and 150 pieces of 203, not even counting those OOR.

PAM187 47mm Luminor 1950 submersible chronograph, 1000 pieces and all those daylights that follows.

PAM191 60mm Compass 300 pieces, well this is one exception BUT it's a compass afterall so I would guess the R&D cost is a lot lower...

PAM194 47mm Luminor 1950 2500m submersible w/ helium release vavle, 1000 pieces, then the PAM285 + the small run of destro for a retailer in Paris?

PAM198 45mm Radiomir w/ JLC 8 day PR movement, well it was released with 190/197 and all the in house movement variants were housed in this case size as well.   

PAM232/249/262 47mm Radiomir, total about 4000 pieces not counting the 309/322/349 granted these models have a sub second so technically one can argue that they're different.

Without trying to justify the manufacturing/tooling cost vs price, it seems clear that the brand would make 1000+ pieces every time they roll out a new models so based on the previous observations, I would expect Panerai to do more than 1000 pieces on the 339.  The choice is would you rather them do 1000 pieces now and then come out w/ another 500-1000 pieces of  OOR/variation later?  

As Nicolas mentioned earlier, they've been doing this for years and there's no reason to expect them to change ttheir attitude  After all, they're running a business, in fact a business operation within a large conglomerate.  As such they are probably under huge pressure to make profit, not necessarily just for the brand but also for the group.     What they've done to the 339 is nothing new and rightfully in the best interest of the share holders.      Of course this might not be in the best interest for some collectors but I think we can all agree it's the right business decision?

#2

Regarding the communications between the dealer and HQ.  I'm not sure if you have first hand information regarding the actual dialogues, unless you do, it would be difficult to assess the right or wrong.  

Moreover, they're in the business of direct marketing via various boutiques, as such it's perfectly sensible to channel the desirable models via the boutique.       Would you have done the same thing if you were running the boutiques?

IMHO, this would continue to post a problem for people who has been traditionally buying from the dealers.  All these momentum on opening brand specific boutiques could potentially drive up the overall cost of ownership for the end consumer.   But this could be another topic in itself.

 

This message has been edited by Jester on 2010-07-08 00:33:56

We should bring up your last point in HoMe forum about the opening of Brand Boutiques possibly increasing the cost to the consumer.  I personally think your accessment is true btw.

Cheers,
Anthony

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That is, coming out with limited editions, then either altering them or producing more than originally stated.
I think it's business as usual, and therefore I take the term 'limited edition' with a very large grain of salt.

Vivid, sense making essay. Bravo!!! I'm sure some of the old timers have a bit of a problem in realizing that the Vandome aquisition of Panerai, had to do with....making money. Whereas in the Pre-V days, the clients (a much smaller base) were going to Panerai, the watches sold "themselves" etc, Richemont has changed this approach, during the course of time. Now Panerai...goes...to the clients. Now the "bottom line" has to be reached and not only for the various dealers and middlemen of old, but for the..company . That's why more Boutiques will be opened, more models will be sold through the Boutiques etc etc.

Same happened to Bvlgari and it's happening to Rolex, Frank Mueller etc etc.

Cheers

 

2 Years is a very long wait.!

 but i wonder why you couldn't pick one up from some very reputable Sellers ??!  i see quite a few 317 for sale.

on the other hand, if i had such a BIG Panerai Collection ,that should keep me happy and fulfilled for a long while till the New comeres show up. but too late now since you had sold them all..

 hopefully you've found a  New Passion from another Brand.

 Cheers

 Tony

As a new owner of a PAM31 since 15 June, I am very happy. I love the dial and the feel on my wrist. I however do not see myself owning more than 2-3 Panerais. I just don't see the point owning watch models which are 90% the same dial. I will like a submersible and a mare nostram. They are different enough. I only want the simple dials. I found the chrono pams a bit too busy.

I hope you at least keep 1-2. I think one always regrets at least a little after having none left.

I had a haircut in HK yesterday. I am on holiday here. The hairdresser wore a submersible. he had it for 8 years. at dinner I saw a 45 year old woman wearing a panerai. well HK is a bit watch crazy. I visited the boutique in Central. Very nice and quiet. I wish they had one in sydney.

Frank

Yes, as indicated there are some pieces that I will not sell due to emotional value (inherited).

And it might very well turn out to be more than 1 or 2, as during the last couple of weeks I have been looking at some of the others pieces that I bought directly myself and must say there are a lot of good personal memories attached to these pieces. So perhaps I am not going to sell all of them as my initial response was, but likely that I will do somewhat of a clean-up. Sounds a bit like a women that has been asked to throw away her shoes.... you know its not gonna happen. So me telling myself to sell all my Panerai perhaps was a mission impossible from the very beginning.....

Will post some pictures for the fans here after the weekend, as I am travelling now. I will put in a little surprise as well, it will be the first one shown on this forum if I am not mistaken.

Another reason for perhaps staying on for a bit longer is because I have reconsidered and actually really want that 339 for which I was (and am again) on the list (some poor dude without knowing had moved from position 2 on the list to 1 when I said I wanted my deposit back, and know he is back at two...... I still hope you get it dude, although I have already heard from some other big ADs that they are worried that Panerai will sell majority through the boutiques and ADs will not get the second 339 that they have asked for).

But I still feel seriously pissed about the 317. I read another post on this forum from another fan who had on the very first day that this watch was shown in Basel '08 registered his interest with his dealer. In his own words "one of the very first people in the world to be on a waiting list for a 317" (and by that I suppose he means a real 317, ie with the black movement). Well my situation is not much different. And for that Panerai, there is no forgiveness :-(

Now, a question for those with insider knowledge (and I do normally consider myself one of those, but want to check the story I have been given when I was in Basel): I was reading an older post here and some people said they were waiting for the Mare Nostrum. Do people know how that one will be distributed, ie solely through the boutiques or also through selected ADs. What I am told is that every country will just get 1 for sale through an AD and the remaining will go through the boutiques.

because we have a rule in our Collectors Market that you cannot list for sale any watches that you've posted pictures or talked about in the forums for a minimum period of 3 months.  We have this rule in effect for shilling reasons.

Cheers,
Anthony

... I am very much aware of that rule and for the watches that I intend to sell I am already in discussion with some people from the local collector's community. Works much better than selling through the internet!

So the few pieces that I will show here are a small part of my own collection and will remain part of it.

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In my earlier years of going after a desired Panerai watch, I too, waited for them whether LE or non-LE, ... Those days, quantities were even fewer and at times, we couldn't even get to see even a regular model on display.

But I came to realise after all those waiting, I became a more patient person when buying a watch. This made me appreciate the watch even more when it finally arrived.

The 'frustration' kind of paid off for me...just my 2 cents.....btw ,,, I am still waiting for another pam..

 

Cheers,

 

I thought I'd throw in some chrono's as I am a bit fond of those myself..... I must be the only (or at least one of the very very few) person with the Panerai 311s in his collection. I bought one for myself (I must admit that it is certainly one the Panerai's that I like most, it is such a beauty) and then by bad fortune got another one. I am now wearing one and the other sits in the safe, waiting for the moment his next owner is grown up and I can pass it on. Same for the 292 k-series, I am wearing that 90% of the days, with the PIG one sitting in the safe. And yes, as promised, something that I had not seen before here (apart from the professional Basel pictures): the PAM343. Very impressive piece and what I like is that it is very light to wear. The AP Bumblebee... amazing piece from a technological perspective. Superb chronograph and amazing finishing on the carbon case. Patek 5980/1A: I refrain from commenting as I think it speaks for itself. Wow, what has that watch grown on me. From a very firm "I dont like that" when I first saw it to a crushing love affair right now....

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