Officine Panerai

Beginning to look good

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Is it just me, or does it look like the dial is not straight since the 9 and 3 are not parallel with the "Radiomir Panerai" writing?

- AT

Beautiful!  Thanks for sharing!

Cheers,
Daos

I am trying to put it down in the most polite way I can because you are a mate and I know your intentions are 100% good, but the recent 203 post and now this post (and where it's heading) just shouts 'wrong' in my book. I am posting this publically and not by private mail because I have the feeling there may be others that feel the same way that I do, or perhaps I am completely off base here and that's fine too. In any case I hope you take this criticism in a constructive manner. 

While I can accept that people want to make their own 'project watches' (why don't we call them for what they are - homemade fakes?) I find it bad taste when these are posted on the public forums. This is very upsetting and dangerous for vintage Panerai collectors and be sure that we encounter pieces trying to pass of as genuine all the time. Some years ago, I didn't understand this and thought these projects were harmless, now I realize this is not the case. There is a difference between making a 'project watch' which is far away from anything real, and making an exact replica. Sadly, I see more and more of the second type. Again, I know you are not doing it for anything more than your passion and not for financial gain, but I think your passion is heading in a wrong direction and certainly others will, and have abused this.

 I also want to add that the 203 post stating the Angelus movements were made by Panerai could have been handled in better way than accusing Panerai and then withdrawing.

 

Cheers,

 

Asi

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All I can say about those ‘homage’ 3646 to be, is that 3646 watches are nothing special apart from their valued histories. 

I guess project pieces are amusing and sometimes are the answers to frustrated individuals, but very often the hard works and the final achievement is short lived because The missing histories often leads owners of ‘homage’s’ pieces to being only left with a chunk of metal. 

Projects like this when made public often if not always serves marginal business and devalues original pieces as well as disrespecting all genuine owners, and the watch histories.

I am not here pointing my finger in any personal ways, sometimes passion drives some to do things without estimating the goods and the bads.  In my books leaving public anything about replicating isn’t good in any ways I look at it.

And, I will add my astonishment that this sort of posts is not here deleted!

I can see your point, and please know that it was not the intention. I have removed the photos.

I ran into the opportunity of acquiring a genuine dial and it seemed a crime, to me, not to try to wear it. Reading your post makes me understand that I should have not brought up this photos. My apologies to the original vintage owners and those that have been offended.

The watch is what it is, I will enjoy it for what it is, not what it isn't. Building a project has a personal satisfaction and it can only be personal. As I mentioned to you in a private mail, I've wanted to be fairly transparent about owning this dial.

On the topic of the 203, well it was a genuine question I had, stemming from having acquired an Angelus movement. Questions have answers only if they are asked.

I do see your points, and appreciate where they come from.

The problem is to get an authentic dial, but only the dial...

Then, it is true that you're walking on thin ice, between Fakes and Hommage.

How can you complete an authentic dial with an authentic watch, and most of all, with an authentic Panerai Vintage?

I don't want to flame you, and certainly not you, but what pointed Asi and Poy is more than true, and as an authetic Paneristi you are / were, you know it mlore than anyone else.

To me, Passion doesn't  meet any acccomodation  with Fakes, or Hommage...

And it is very sensible, with Panerai, or any other brand with a real Past.

Best,

Nicolas

 

 

 

 

Hi Nicolas,

You wrote:

"To me, Passion doesn't  meet any acccomodation  with Fakes, or Hommage...

And it is very sensible, with Panerai, or any other brand with a real Past."

To draw this debate into the automotive sphere, where does this philosophy leave the likes of Chris Reas' 156 Shark Nose or the magnificent 6C Mille Miglia replica that was completed here in Australia? Or Beales astounding RC166 250-6?

Incredible amounts of passion, sweat, effort expended on creating....hommages...

It's a difficult field. Though Asi's use of Stewart's "I know when I see it", probably best sums it up.

my thoughts as well on this.

My opinion is, that everyone can do what he wants - building together pieces, of which some are genuine and some are not, is making a dangerous combination in my opinion... I could imagine that in some years such watches gets more and more "real" infront of unnkown collectors in case that these pieces become up for sale...

Also, I don't know any other brand forums, where it is in good spotlight to present a franken/fake/replica/hommage of a genuine (vintage) model... I am sure there exist other forums where such watches can be discussed - but not in a Panerai forum (which is there to speak and learn about genuine instead of fake watches, or am I wrong here...?).

I got the feeling in the past months that there was some kind of a "silent contest" to build the closest franken/fake/replica/hommage... many times when a question about a vintage Panerai model or movement was asked, it turned out to be a question in relationship to a franken/fake/replica/hommage ... not very nice, getting asked a question on a vintage watch and in the second reply there was "thanks for answering my question, I try to find a Cortebert/Angelus movement for my project watch..." if that goal came out in the initial question, I would not have answered for sure...

For a collector who wants to step in into the vintage Panerai thing, it is getting more and more difficult and dangerous IMO. And that is, at the end, surely not good at all!

Volker

You are right - If a collector is looking to buy a VINTAGE it seems to be getting very dangerous - What is VINTAGE and what is so-so vintage????

Angelo P 

I agree with you entirely. Matter of fact, these type of threads have been....banned....from another Panerai forum I frequent. Nothing wrong with..hobbies and passions...but there are websites the "hommage enthusiasts" can congregate in and share their....fervour and achievements..with one another  

and  "fake" references are about, the dial is real isn't it???? Should it just be kept in a drawer somewhere to never see the light of day???  Why not let this piece of history and the memory of the man/men that wore it live on????

Guille obviously isn't building the piece to "fool" anyone and has clearly gone through great pains to acquire and assemble a piece that's truly special to him and I for one admire his passion.  It's not as if this is some cheap slapped together piece of pot metal that he ordered on the web and loudly proclaims to be "just as nice as a vintage 3646"....

Say the dial were a 60's era Ferrari V12 you found in a barn somewhere,  would it be a greater sacrilege to restore it and place it in a donor car or leave it in disrepair?????  I for one say good show Guille....

 

The whole modification (from what I can tell with deleted pix) seemed to come out of passion.

As a car guy, the Ferrari analogy certainly rang true.

Someone please educate me if I'm wrong on this.

No intention of stirring the pot even more, but I can understand where Guille, Asi and Volker are coming from. Imho, they are the only people that should be commenting and since all that is needed to say has been said, nothing more should be added.

However since others have chimed in, allow me to say this. Guille, you have a great passion for Panerai, and that passion is genuine and very much respected by me. You're a mate to me and I stand by your passion, amigo.

I think every Panerai collector has a rather good reason to state his opinion about Guille's plan to create one or more fake Vintage Panerais. Let's please call it what it is!

First and foremost, "Keller 3646" happens to be Ralf Ehlers, the co-author of the recent book "Vintage Panerai - The References". He certainly has as much of a right to state his opinion here as you attribute to Volker or Asi.

I happen to be a Panerai and Vintage Panerai collector and I was (together with Asi, Volker, Ralf, ...) at the Club Panerai Viareggio Meeting a few weeks ago. You can have a look at some of my watches at the German Panerai Forum (my handle there is "t.bone", check the thread "Fotos" -- afaik T. Mao does not allow links). I hope you won't forbid me to chime in. It's a rare event anyhow. I usually avoid postings at ThePurists for reasons going back a long time ago.

Guille's "project" bothers me, but the fact that he posts his ideas as well as proceedings with pictures in several Panerai fora bothers me even more.

These kind of posts in a collectors forum do nothing but condone, encourage or even invite the production of fakes. It matters little if we have an actual, yet non-Panerai Angelus movement or even an authentic dial. A Lemania Chrono movement does not make a Patek 3970 or 5070 either, nor does the dial of a Rolex Daytona make the whole watch! Tempering with items like these to create a authentic or semi-authentic looking watch is forgery!

Guille might as well be a great mate and without any plans to make any material gain from his creation(s), but he lowers the threshold and opens the door into the realm of fake productions. Why, Guille, are you trying to create these "hommages"? To pass them off as a real vintage pieces? To show that you made the pieces all by yourself, yet with original, or close-to-original parts? Is that not an invitation for others to do the same and to then go ahead and sell these -- excuse me -- obvious and undeniable fakes? Prior to that they can now even advertise their wonderful creations in a collector's forum! That's a new one!

There's another problem. One of the biggest headaches for vintage collectors is the cotinuous search for original replacement parts, either for an actual repair of for future replacements. Now if more people follow Guille's example, trying to locate one or more original vintage parts, to then build some kind of "project" around them, the market for these parts will soon dry up, leaving owners of REAL vintage pieces without badly needed resources.

One of the big enigmas behind collecting Vintage Panerai watches is the story that goes with each watch. Many of the Kampfschwimmer 3646s have engravings on the back that state the original owner. Ralf Ehlers is but one example for a collector who tried to learn the whole story behind his vintage watches. He published several in his first book co-authored with Volker, "Vintage Panerai - Watches with History". Two of my Kampfschwimmer watches have back engravings and I am willing to also do my homework and dig up the story behind the watches and their owners. There is certainly a story behind my 6152/1 Angelus as well as my 6154. Maybe I will be able to learn more about their individual histories. It's what really fascinates me the most about these watches.

Now, Guille, how far will you go? Will you get an old electric shaver, temper with it and create authentic looking back engravings on your upcoming 3646 "hommage"? Is that kewl?

There is no place for fakes or their production process in a collectors forum.

Sorry, should I have stepped on anyone's toes - I mean well!

Thomas

if they let you in here,,,,,,,lol

Thomas, hope all is well

Cheers,

 

Asi

without any doubts!

I think we all agree that those like posts should not be published. We are all saying the same things with different approaches.  I earlier posted 'sometimes passion drives us to do wrong' and frustration is often the reason for some to take short cuts. BUT let's not forget that many of us do know Guille and I do not think in this case that anyone ought to finger-point anyone.  A mistake was made, hopfully all good points are noted, and we simply move on.

Now for you Mr. Thomas... you sure have a very interesting collection, Congratulations!  How about a new head post with some yummy pictures of your pieces?

This message has been edited by PoyFR on 2009-06-20 11:33:44

. . . and initially declined to comment because this is not my turf; as far as I'm concerned, the fascination Panerai holds for the true believers is the second greatest mystery in the universe, and I've long abandoned any hope of comprehending the depth of devotion Paneristis clearly have for the objects of their affection. Speaking as an outsider, I sense a measure of conformity on the part of the vintage Panerai community towards the efforts of a fellow aficionado who most likely lacks the wherewithal to afford a vintage Panerai. With all due respect to the tightly-knit vintage club, and to Thomas in particular as he's clearly outlined what he finds objectionable in Guille's project, the reasons appear to be a matter of pure self-interest. The issues have been identified as condoning and facilitating fraud, and of manipulating the market for spare parts. The first issue is, in my view, nonsense - Guille has openly described precisely what he's doing, and there has been no suggestion on his part that his efforts are in any way commercial. Fraud implies deception, which is entirely absent here. To place the term 'hommages' in quotation marks and then ask a clearly spurious question is, frankly, misleading . . . there is simply no way that Guille could openly post his efforts in creating a watch from spare parts and then try to pass off the finished product as genuine. Those who create fake watches from genuine parts have no need of inspiration from a Panerai forum - their incentive is purely monetary, induced by the improbable price levels set by the market for these scarce commodities; the irony is that while they were always scarce, they weren't always valuable ;-).

The second problem you've identified bothers me even more than the first, Thomas, as it lends a view that the vintage Panerai collectors community is self-centered. I can think of no other commodity that has increased a thousand-fold or more in real terms over the last two decades, and those who collected early on are holding onto perhaps the most lucrative watches of all time. Are you similarly concerned about the inability of aficionados like Guille to afford the objects of their desire? A man of average means can't indulge in collecting vintage Panerai because of the astronomical price appreciation. Simply because a man can't afford a work of art doesn't mean that he shouldn't hang a copy in his living room, does it? The implication seems to be that you're concerned about having to shell out more to obtain spare parts, which is a natural concern, but you must admit that it's a narrowly selfish one. From my perspective, the willingness to put one's self-interest ahead of the ability to allow a fellow aficionado the chance to share in the experience of wearing a vintage Panerai, however ephemerally, is unseemly. Surely you don't believe that Guille by himself is leveraging the market, do you? Yes, a horde of unscrupulous frauds will affect the market, but lumping Guille in with them is clearly wrong as he is clearly not engaged in fraud for commercial purposes. Perhaps removing one genuine dial from the market will cause it to tighten a little,but you can hardly expect an impartial outside observer to feel much sympathy when the same market worked to your advantage as the prices for vintage Panerais moved from the three and four figure range to the six figure range.

What I find most disturbing, however, is the final ad hominem attack implying a desire on Guille's part to replicate historical markings on German military issue Panerais. Your fellow vintage Panerai collectors at least separate the character of the man from his acts, and there was really no purpose served by the flippant insult, which I find to be entirely uncalled for, and deserving of an apology. Please note that this is not just a "collectors forum", as you put it, but PuristSPro, where the virtue of passion is held in high esteem. I've met Guille twice, and in my judgement his passion for vintage Panerai is genuine. I fully understand the issues from your perspective, and might even agree with or have sympathy for your position, but my feeling is that the manner in which you expressed your opinions exceeded the bounds of propriety, which is why I was moved to finally reply. Looking forward to your response, Art

I've too purposely kept quiet in this thread because the vintage world is not and has never been something I've paid attention to, and so I've just kept my mouth shut with regards to this thread.  However, I do feel exactly the same way as you have eloquently expressed, and I'm glad someone posted this.

- Anthony

No, I enjoyed your post, which refreshingly infuses watch collecting - an entirely self-centered obsession - with socialistic ideas. Anthony seems to hum The Internationale since he read your lines too.

You're a good guy. You cannot understand the Paneristi, and their obsession with this strange brand, yet you keep an eye out for the undermined, selflessly patrolling through watch forums.

Maybe you are indeed on to something here. All those who cannot afford Vintage Panerais shall go right ahead and create their own fake pieces at their hearts content.

Maybe Vintage Panerai collectors are bad people. They are evidently wealthy and their despicable wealth even increased when the value of their possessions moved from 3 or 4 to 6-digit numbers. Shame on them!

Still, it would have been refreshing, had you once commented on the issue at stake. The description of a process to create a non-original watch gives the wrong signal. It blurs the line between illegal fakes and a true collectors items. That is my issue. I am not trying to revolutionize, I am not saying that watch collecting has anything to do with philanthropy or that expensive watches are not bought out of pure vanity.

Guille's actions are not good for any watch collector who pays top dollar for a genuine product. The production of fake watches, may it be done in whichever spirit, will undermine the value of her or his genuine watch. It affects every single collector - perhaps not you, No.

You did not like my words, but then enjoyed writing plenty of your own. Socialism and vanity is an invogurating mix!

And now ...

Arise, wretched of the earth
Arise, convicts of hunger
Reason thunders in its crater
This is the eruption of the end
Of the past let us wipe the slate clean
Masses, slaves, arise, arise
The world is about to change its foundation
We are nothing, let us be all
 |: This is the final struggle
  Let us group together, and tomorrow
  The Internationale
  Will be the human race :|

....

. . . but since you've decided to respond with a tissue of nonsense and bombast, a point-by-point retort is in order. First and foremost, application of the term "socialist" to this matter is beyond ridiculous. How government intervention in markets became intertwined with the issues at hand is a mystery, unless, of course, your intent was to smear, in which case the result has the same effect as pointing a prop gun at a hold-up.

A PuristSPro moderator is primarily responsible for his or her forum, Thomas, but is also tasked with maintaining order on all the fora . . . that I would respond to an outbreak on any forum is entirely within my purview, and while I normally defer to the moderator of any particular forum, I'm entitled to comment on egregious violations of protocol wherever they may be. Your personal attack on Guille drew my ire, and you're not doing anything to rehabilitate your reputation, which is going to be very difficult because you're starting off on the wrong foot. Lest you think that Guille is a personal friend or that I have an axe to grind with you personally or the wealthy in general, you would be wrong on all counts.

To imply that I'm endorsing the willy-nilly production of project watches is similarly absurd. Frankly, I think it's a misguided effort myself, but I'm not Guille, and I'm in no position to decide what is right for him - and, for that matter, neither are you. Let's be clear on this, Thomas - he's not engaged in any fraudulent activity, so his actions do not fall under the scrutiny of Law. That his efforts may or may not have an impact on your bottom line is a separate issue, which would properly be the subject of a private discussion between the two of you. To call him on the carpet in an open forum is to take liberties that you're not entitled to, which is why you're treading on thin ice.

The focus of your angst is displayed in your comments portraying my comments as derogatory towards vintage Panerai collectors based on their evident wealth and windfall profits. Personally, I think your comments betray a sense of insecurity regarding the value of vintage Panerais. While the adulation the brand receives is indeed a mystery, what is patently clear is that the unreal levels of financial appreciation your collections have recently undergone are part and parcel of the Panerai mystique. If the mystique dissipates, so does the value of your collections. The truth of the matter is that vintage Panerais are, in purely horological terms, mundane; what makes them fascinating has little to do with the watches directly - it's the history of the brand that makes them compelling. How does it feel to be sitting on a bubble, Thomas?

In your words, "The description of a process to create a non-original watch gives the wrong signal. It blurs the line between illegal fakes and a true collectors item. That is my issue." Sorry to say, but as in many other aspects of life, matters are not an issue of black or white - there are shades of grey, and Guille's project is one of them.

"Guille's actions are not good for any watch collector who pays top dollar for a genuine product." Perhaps. I don't see how a single instance of a clearly defined hommage project watch dilutes the market, but if it does, then that's part of the package, Thomas . . . you cannot expect to reap the benefits of a free market that allows for phenomenal appreciation of a fundamentally mundane commodity, and receive sympathy for the consequences to the downside. Clearly, it is in your self-interest to insulate your special market as much as possible, but do not expect that PuristSPro will grant you a free pass to trample on another persons dignity in the process. Logging on to PuristSPro cost you nothing, you are able to expound your views without paying a dime, and you can use the private e-mail system to send personal messages . . . all we ask is that you follow the dictates of common sense and decorum.

I accept your criticism that my comments are made at no cost to myself, as I'm not in a position to lose anything by the dilution of the market. Regarding vanity: try looking in a mirror. And "The Internationale"? Really, now . . . bemused, Art

I won't fall into a provocation, I think I have said what I needed on this topic on and offline.

I offered regrets for posting the photos out of respect for people I know who own vintage pieces, and for the admiration that I have for the watches themselves. That's it, I don't owe anyone anything more.

The undermined? Socialism? You don't know anything about me and you are crossing into a territory that I frankly have no interest of going into.

But you most be offended enough for this recourse. So I'd like to offer you the opportunity to take this dial from me, for what I paid for it. You'll find it's value to be certainly not in the socialist range.

Most of the people in this thread know me for the past 8 years, I respect their sentiment on the topic, but don't confuse that courtesy with anything else.

Guille,

Why are you rewarding such boorish, self-centred behavior with such generosity?

As you have acquired the dial (assume legally), you are free to do with it as you wish.

A. You can frame it for posterity.

B. You can use it in any of your other watches (assume without fraudalent gain).

C. You can even destroy it......well.....let's say to preserve the rarity of this model and the fortunes of ALL vintage collectors.  

 

Yet you offer the dial to your main accuser.......you Sir.....are a better man than most.  (assume you are male  -  diffcult to guess from Internet or false girls' names)

Then again, because the dial is yours to do as you wish.....that is your prerogative.

 

Regards,

MTF

Is as important as he makes it be.

Will he reach deep into his pocket for it?

I doubt it, but I am willing to stand on my offer.

If nobody gets this dial from me, then as you say I'm free to do with it as I choose.

of course making it more International ;-)

It's unbecoming that owners suggest that non-owners limit their enjoyment to a set of "approved/sanctioned" guidelines.

Please, do not offer me more suggestions, it is extremely patronizing.

Rest assure it was my first and my last suggestion to you.

This message has been edited by PoyFR on 2009-06-22 08:49:06

but others might have.

Guille, for what it's worth, this was not meant to be an attack against you as a person and it sure saddens me, should you feel offended.

Whatever you associate with socialism or "the undermined" (it's not all bad!!) has not been attributed to you by me, but by the person I directly addressed with these issues.

MTF had a good idea. Hang the dial up your wall! If I'm not mistaken, Ralf has one framed in his house as well.

I stated my issues and No had nothing better to do than pick my initial posting apart and play school teacher. As far as I am concerned, No blew this thing out of proportion by making a post that was not good for anything, but to attack me.