Comments:
A few recent releases and Chantilly Concours of Arts and Elegance this week-end
I noticed on RM's website a few recent models I didn't pay attention too lately, I thought I could share them today.
RM11-02 Ceramic "Japan" edition:
RM11-02 NTPT "Asia" edition:
RM030 Blue Ceramic EMEA region edition:
RM030 NTPT "Asia" edition:
RM055 NTPT "Japan" edition:
________________________________________
Aside from this, for people who are near Paris (France) this week-end, remember that the 2017 Chantilly of Arts and Elegance Concours will be held this Sunday September, 10th 2017. As usual, you'll be able to walk among beautiful cars and more...
RM11-02 Ceramic "Japan" edition:
RM11-02 NTPT "Asia" edition:
RM030 Blue Ceramic EMEA region edition:
RM030 NTPT "Asia" edition:
RM055 NTPT "Japan" edition:
RM07-01 EMEA Nephrite edition:
________________________________________
Aside from this, for people who are near Paris (France) this week-end, remember that the 2017 Chantilly of Arts and Elegance Concours will be held this Sunday September, 10th 2017. As usual, you'll be able to walk among beautiful cars and more...
The official video here below:
More about it here if you're interested: http://www.chantillyartsetelegance.com/language/en/home/
Certainly more pictures will be available soon.
Best, Mark
Indeed, but this is I think a good thing for such a brand
People knowing RM from far, are not familiar with their products and volumes.
They have been providing in their early period (they started in 2001 so this is quite recent) one model after another. Aesthetically, they were mainly gold followed by Titanium when they could master the production of Ti for their cases (it wasn't as frequent to have Ti cases back then). Hence we had mainly Ti, WG, RG and a very few PT (some references had only less than 10 pieces in Pt).
With the market increase of the last decade, the brand has increased its production to around 3 000 pieces (and maybe around 3 500 recently).
From a long while there was only "classical" colours.
To understand what this brand is (even if it evolved with demand and success) you must know what the founder is. He is a very tasteful guy in terms of aesthetics (not only watches) and he is mainly a huge car fan. With the success of his brand he has been able to acquire racing cars among which famous old F1 cars that he has been able to resore. All came from this passion of Hi-tech engineered stuff.
And I must say I'm the same, this is maybe the reason why I like the brand. I see it differently. I'm not a engineer but I like planes, cars, boats, even talking about other mechanical stuff, science etc...
Hence, RM discovered that there was a place for a watch that would be like creating an F1 car. He brings Carbon when he can, Titanium for other elements than the case (baseplate) while trying to keep the watch resistant compared to what mechancial watches were known for. Like a kid.
Imagine that you say you want a movement with Ti inside, Carbon when we can (it wasn't available at the beginning) and let's play with all these Hi-Tech elements used in F1 but also planes, satelites etc... These materials have been developped by other fields so you only have to use them (and work the material which is not easy) after buying the right to do so of course.
These elements are good for communication and marketting of course but they are also very good for lightness, corrosion, wear and tear, shockproofness etc... Some materials they used were put in a very few watches only because too hard to shape with the available tools.
Here is a post I made about materials RM used if interested: www.watchprosite.com
The result was the most confortable watches, very light, with very unusual materials and very resistant (for a mechanical watch of course). And the result was a huge cost because of the development needed and the volumes sold (sometimes 10 watches only).
Hence, the price, hence the technical choices. The price is a consequence of these technical choices and he felt at the beginning that their would be a market for this. So the problem of the price is not a problem for them. He someone thinks it is too expensive then he can look somewhere else. But there are people who have acquired already all kind of watches in the more traditional fields and who wishe to explore something else.
He was right and as in all luxury fields, the success brings success and high prices make a selection that attracts wealth as well.
It was a little long but, as time goes by, the materials have evolved, the demand has evolved and RM was able to introduce colors, especially with Ceramic.
The brand faced a problem with its low production volume and its low number of references (there were only around 20 different watches during the first 10 eyars). Indeed, the watches looked the same as they were recognizable from this tonneau-shaped specific case. Hence, it was alittle boring and he needed to bring more diversity.
Furthermore, as there were so many new materials, it was impossible to introduce all these versions in the standard collection.
Thus, instead of bring 100 watches in Ti or gold, you bring 70 in Ti or gold and the 30 remainings in something else (material or color). Hence, RM has a standard line (i.e. gold and Ti based cases) and adds from time to time models that are more difficult to produce or that they don't want to produce too much. Then, regularly, you have a different version with the Carbon NTPT case, or a Cermaic one (in different colors). Some are only available in some regions, other just for an event.
They are usual 10 to 50 pieces editions. The limit of their production capacity implies they have to limit the diversity.
I must say I like that. As a buyer, I wouldn't like that there are NTPT cases everywhere or blue ceramic cases only etc... Furthermore, I know there are many color combinations that I don't like, thus I'll have to wait for the Limited edition I like. It is better as you don't feel you have a watch produced at 100s of pieces, so you feel that you have something more personal.
If today RM remained only with Ti and gold cases I would think it is a lack of interest. If there were too many carbon cases, it wouldn't be interesting either and would become ordinary, in a certain way.
I'm glad to see there are different models and colors or versions of cars and I'm glad we can have a wider choice from RM.
However, you're not the only one and this is an observation that many express when looking at RM for the first times.
Best, Mark
Perfect response
Measured and informed - I need to commit this response to memory to use it when someone asks me a similar question about why I enjoy RM so much.
The variety adds to the interest, and supports the development of new and exciting calibres.
Thank you as always for sharing Mark. Colton
The variety adds to the interest, and supports the development of new and exciting calibres.
Thank you as always for sharing Mark. Colton
Hey Colton, thanks!
With such brand it is indeed a question, disccussion that comes often and I must say that I was thinking the same when I discovered the brand.
That's why I take time to explain how to see it and then people can think about it, try them eventually and make up their own mind.
Thanks a lot for your nice words Colton 
Best, Mark
I'll sound like a troll
but honestly, can somebody explain me these watches? I'm not talking about their design cause I understand this is a personal opinion. You might like them and you might hate them. just like some people probably don't like a Patek 2499.
But i do have a HUGE problem with their price. A cheap almost massively made RM costs almost the same as a Voutilainen or even close to a RW Smith ?
I had some RM in my hands the last years and I still don't get it. Their finishing is OK but imo no more than OK. And terrible compared with for example a Philippe Dufour which will cost you a fraction of the price. I was browsing thought a watchbook edition 2017 a couple of days ago and once again I was blown away with prices around 500K, 1 million and more.
But i do have a HUGE problem with their price. A cheap almost massively made RM costs almost the same as a Voutilainen or even close to a RW Smith ?
I had some RM in my hands the last years and I still don't get it. Their finishing is OK but imo no more than OK. And terrible compared with for example a Philippe Dufour which will cost you a fraction of the price. I was browsing thought a watchbook edition 2017 a couple of days ago and once again I was blown away with prices around 500K, 1 million and more.
And after more than 25 years of collection watches I really don't understand their prices.
Long long time ago they made advertisements like ' Richard Mille starting at ... ( a few hundred K). Almost all the other brands say ' price upon request' if a watch is considered to be expensive.
Is Richard Mille something like Vertu ? You get a mediocre product for an insane price but you don't care because the most important thing is that other people might recognize it and THEY know it is insane expensive. Many brands make sapphire cases today. Hublot for example has a few and they start at 50K. Bell & Ross even makes them. And more than 20 years ago Alain Silverstein made a sapphire case. I do understand there will be differences between these cases but how the hell can RM charge more than 1 million for a sapphire case? ONLY the case cause when I look at their tourbillon and their sapphire case tourbillon the price difference is over 1 million.
I believe their total year production is close to 3500 pieces, Voutilainen is between 40 and 80 and I think Smith will be 15 or so. We are not talking about something extremely rare with a huge production cost per piece, right ?
Again, I hope I did not insult anybody and don't want to be the troll of the month but why do I always think these watches should be 5 times cheaper than their price tag. After all these years I still don't get it so if I'm missing something please explain me.
You got the point.
It is true that RM prices its pieces crazily and they definitely do not worth such amounts of money. However if people pays that prices... but as you said RM is a bit like Rolex, many buy them just to show they are wealthy for Rolex or very wealthy in case of RM.
Furthermore I do not understand all those "editions", always the same watch but they interchange colours and (sometimes) materials.
Best.
Furthermore I do not understand all those "editions", always the same watch but they interchange colours and (sometimes) materials.
Best.
This is totally understandable when coming from the traditional brands
The fist thing we look at (as I did when I started in watches and when I discovered RM for the first time around 2009) is the price point compared to traditional, established brands.
The comparision is made on what these brands are known for: polishing (cases, hands, markers, chamfering...), classical style, brand fame (PP, AP, VC, ALS, indies and so on...).
Thus, using that base reference for RM brings questions.
However, from what I wrote in the past ( www.watchprosite.com
, www.watchprosite.com
and in other posts), this is not what the brand is about.
Instead of gold and steel, they use Ti (now it is more "ordinary" but it wasn't at the beginning, especially for movement parts), different types of Carbon (from simple nanotube resins at the beginning to real carbon today), Alusic, Lital, Magnesium, all kind of hi-tech materials used in F1 engine combustion rooms, satelites, plane's landing gear etc...
Their materials are much more difficult to craft and shape than the classical ones. When these materials are used for the movement (baseplate, tourbillon bridges or smaller parts) it is also a much bigger task to perform.
Furthermore, compared to traditonal brands (JLC, PP, VC, AP etc...), the volumes are much lower, hence the impact on the final price is very important.
When you look at some Independent watches, you also see a very high increase in terms of pricing compared to traditional brands. Some have a very high finishing quality (like KV, DB for instance) and others don't. However, the prices, because of the volumes are generally much higher than what we can find with established brands.
I don't think that we can compare brands on their price level only, without looking precisely what is offered. RM offers something very different and we can't judge the price on the standard criteria like chamfering or polishing. We are talking about other fields.
That's why I feel in your "cheap and massively produced" or "mediocre product" sentences someting that indeed you don't understand (and a little biased :p ). I think, as you tried them, that it is just not your thing at all. As some also don't like this or that independent brand (MB&F, Urwerk etc...) because they are too different. But you can't I would tend to think that you understimate what their production challenges are.
We don't have to like them all but just to find what appeals to us. In that way, RM is not your thing but you should imagine that others appreciate the technicity, materials and developement difficulties in another way.
Now, if someone prefers the traditional part, then he shouldn't go for RM (I'm sure many started "traditional" and ended understandind and loving RM in the end, but not everyone will). However, if someone wants something else and tries, he might then think that traditional watchmaking is less interesting.
That's why I don't think we can compare a Dufour and a RM. This would be like comparing a small 2-sit car (Lotus Elise, not comfy, not much luggage room, bad visibility on the rear, noisy, no Air conditioning, no electric windows etc...) with a German premium sedan for the same price. But some will prefer the Elise over the BMW and others will prefer the latter. It depends on the use, taste etc...
Some say also that the price of a German premium car is not justified when you can have the same thing in a Toyota, Renault etc... Well, I think that I would disagree on the comparision as well and it is just that the important criteria are not the same for each of us.
As I replied to PP5170G above (you can read my answer if you want to know more about the brand), this is totally different as a watch brand, and one has at least to understand and feel attracted by the field used in RM watches. Most of RM clients have been owners of traditional brands before. The success of RM has shown that what they bring has appealed to many, especially during the 10 or 15 first years.
All this being said, you know that we are in a luxury field and that the price is not 100% linked with the production costs. RM has created a very appealing brand for people who like their techniques (material, caracteristics...) but also as what they represent as a social status symbol.
The pricing power in that field is huge for RM. Thus that's where their prices land.
You won't buy them, hopefully you don't have too, you don't really understand how other can like them that much as it is not appealing to what interests you in the watchmaking field, but I guess we are all different and that some are ready to pass that threshold you're far from. No problem with that Bruno. This is just a product that really doesn't appeal to you and a product that is playing in a sector where his image allows it to be sold at such prices.
I guess that we can say the same about some sport cars or Hermes bags etc... RM watches benefit from this situation they have succeeded in creating thanks to many tangible assets from combining watchmaking and other high-tech fields.
Best, Mark
Bruno doesn't like RM--I'm shocked. Not.
End of the day they are selling everyone at full price these days (hotter brand than even your beloved Patek). I guess I could go on Patek forum and say how much I hate dress watches, over priced sub-standard service times, etc. But I won't. Take care and no explanation needed on RM. You get it or you don't. Buy what you like and enjoy. Take care.
And yes, you get troll of the month.
And yes, you get troll of the month.
everything is relative
I totally understand your point as I too find RM prices today to be ridiculous.
however, I only feel that way about them because they are the most outrageous compared to the competition.
now let's backtrack a bit. for people not into watches, a Rolex is considered very expensive as after all it is a mass produced steel watch that tells time only.
supply and demand. watches are worth exactly what people are willing to pay for them. no more no less.
however, I only feel that way about them because they are the most outrageous compared to the competition.
now let's backtrack a bit. for people not into watches, a Rolex is considered very expensive as after all it is a mass produced steel watch that tells time only.
supply and demand. watches are worth exactly what people are willing to pay for them. no more no less.
RM to me is all about comfort n ease of wearing..
I am not into the complications. I buy RM for the comfort on the wrist. I second Mr Richard Mille believe in luxury is ease of wear n comfort is priceless. I see RM basically have two different lines. One is complication/hi-tech n the other is comfort/luxury (the ultra flat) collection. I am mostly into the later. It is honestly hard to find a 100k watch that is as easy to wear (ultra flat) n allow you to do sports with (waterproof, shockproof n on rubber strap) n luxurious all at the same time. It is not just a looker it can be a true daily beater.
I won't but have a good time there!
It will be a very nice Sunday activity for sure, if the weather is ok :p
Best, Mark
It was an amazing event !
A picture of @easytowatch and me with the Parmigiani Fleurier Tonda and 2 two VIP RM
Excellent shot, thank you!
It seems you didn't have too much rain. I imagine the cars and events were great to attend.
Thanks again
Best, Mark
I dit not have the rain, lucky us !
It was my first time here, and I will come back. Cars, animations, planning, everything was perfect
I think we'll have official pictures soon, I'm eager to see them :)
I forgot to congratulate you for the Parmigiani, they are very interesting pieces and have a nice boutique in Paris.
Thanks!
Best, Mark
Very good dialogue in the comments Mark
you present a fair picture for the brand and its fans.
I recently got to try a few RM pieces on at an AD thanks to the help of Padj and the lightness of construction & potential comfort are top class.
Some personal ovservations:
Both RM and FP Journe watches came into the world at about the same time circa 2000 and it is an interesting comparison to consider. These two Frenchmen who are envied in Switzerland. Similarities in that they are driven by a singular vision of the primary owner whose name is the brand. Their creators can be said to have very visible less than humble perceptions - Journe's Invenit & Fecit motto and Mille's presence in RM advertising. They have very idiosyncratic looking watches that can polarize. They have been clever about controlling the distribution of their watches. But then the differences; FPJ is a very classical interpretation of watchmaking while RM is neo-modern. Journe started as a true master watchmaker and if I am not mistaken Mille's background was not. FPJ seems to be generally perceived as watches with great diverse in-house movements in limited materials of RG or Pt or Ti. RM seems to be generally perceived as watches with diverse sporty & eye-catching designs & materials in limited movement types. I wonder if Renaud et Papi were more prominent in RM visibility, would the people who respect FPJ as a watchmaking genius also give RM watches the same thought (that is to say, if Giorgio Papi founded a watch company and called it Richard Mille.). And then one of the biggest visible differences: RM watches are not shy with using large sizing & diamonds and RM watches are on the wrists of men & women who want to be noticed; FPJ watches are thin classical style watches that slip under the shirt sleeve and diamonds are more only on the women's line.
All my opinions and no offense intended. It will be interesting to see in another 20 years what happens to FPJ and RM and where they stand in our eyes.
I recently got to try a few RM pieces on at an AD thanks to the help of Padj and the lightness of construction & potential comfort are top class.
Some personal ovservations:
Both RM and FP Journe watches came into the world at about the same time circa 2000 and it is an interesting comparison to consider. These two Frenchmen who are envied in Switzerland. Similarities in that they are driven by a singular vision of the primary owner whose name is the brand. Their creators can be said to have very visible less than humble perceptions - Journe's Invenit & Fecit motto and Mille's presence in RM advertising. They have very idiosyncratic looking watches that can polarize. They have been clever about controlling the distribution of their watches. But then the differences; FPJ is a very classical interpretation of watchmaking while RM is neo-modern. Journe started as a true master watchmaker and if I am not mistaken Mille's background was not. FPJ seems to be generally perceived as watches with great diverse in-house movements in limited materials of RG or Pt or Ti. RM seems to be generally perceived as watches with diverse sporty & eye-catching designs & materials in limited movement types. I wonder if Renaud et Papi were more prominent in RM visibility, would the people who respect FPJ as a watchmaking genius also give RM watches the same thought (that is to say, if Giorgio Papi founded a watch company and called it Richard Mille.). And then one of the biggest visible differences: RM watches are not shy with using large sizing & diamonds and RM watches are on the wrists of men & women who want to be noticed; FPJ watches are thin classical style watches that slip under the shirt sleeve and diamonds are more only on the women's line.
All my opinions and no offense intended. It will be interesting to see in another 20 years what happens to FPJ and RM and where they stand in our eyes.
This is an interesting comparision
There are of course significant differences but the parallel is well spoted imho.
I agree with all you said. The brand has brought a lot and, with its success (well deserved and based on the technical aspects) and considering the high price luxury market it is aiming, the brand has gahtered other kinds of clients and provided othe type of ostentatious "decorations". I guess no brand might refuse to make something that way if the market is there but they have to handle this issue with care.
We'll see indeed in the future how it evolves. I think that if RM (like Porsche) makes its style evolve touch by touch only, then it might go well. On the other hand, if they bring significant changes, thus making the older references "has been", leading to a drop in second hand watches prices, it will be negative for the brand. Not for the very wealthy clients who just switch to the last collections on a regular basis but for all the other clients who appreciate the watches for something else than a status tool and who look after their assets in a more reasonable way.
We'll see
Thanks for your valuable input Joe!
Best, Mark
Agree, Mark, RM need to be very smart about growth
NYTimes did an interview with Monsieur Mille back in March 2017 and it was indicated that RM will produce 4,000 watches this year. Two years ago it was reported 3,200 watches. That is 25% growth in two years which is phenomenal considering the worldwide sluggishness for the Swiss watch industry. But RM need to take a good long look at what AP did with the ROO back in the late 1990's-2010's when they were such hot watches and there was insatiable appetite for new models. Secondary prices were strong for ROO watches for years just like RMs enjoy now. But I argue the strong appetite for ROO has not kept up for the last 2-3 years and there are just too much stock out there from 20 years of ROO production, they are too commonplace, and it has hurt their long term value.
Think RM has a little more insight into their business. 3 years ago you get a RM with 3k made. Today with 4k can't be found. They will never cater to $75k or less crowd--like AP. [nt]
No message body
I see your enthusiasm for RM
and I understand tribalism in watch collecting where everyone really loves their favorite brand & gets fired up about it, but let's not categorically put down watches by cost or insinuate that there's something indignant about people who buy a watch that is $50K, $60K, or $70K and whoever makes it -- AP or PP or Rolex. Gentlemanly discourse, the PPro way.
Anyway, AP owns a piece of RM and Renaud et Papi are the geniuses behind the haute horlogerie movements so there should be respect for AP from RM owners.
Anyway, AP owns a piece of RM and Renaud et Papi are the geniuses behind the haute horlogerie movements so there should be respect for AP from RM owners.
I understand. I've had lunch with Papi, owned more AP's than I can count and know the whole history quite well :-) I see you are here to troll...so have at it. [nt]
No more replies from me in this thread...going down hill quickly.
But I will say I enjoyed lunch with Papi--a true genius.
🤦♂️ huh I am not trolling
You missed the parts where I wrote that I think RM construction are top class and Richard Mille is envied for his success. You may be using the term troll too liberally. On PPro we can have passionate debates supported by facts and/or reasoned perspective. I like to think that we can admire a brand or watch or horology in general and still engage it critically. It is the best way to broaden your views.
sorry but what's the point
of posting the picture?
if you want to make the point I think you want to make, at least post one where you are in it. LOL
if you want to make the point I think you want to make, at least post one where you are in it. LOL
Well, yes, they've been growing very quickly since the last 15 years or so
I think that this figure has to be also taken in the perspective of the growth in demand, considering they are known more and more.
When I bought my RM035 in 2012, it was much less so and such brand becoming more and more famous leads to a demand that allows imho a growth in production.
However, you're right, this is a true issue for brands in general. Increasing prices when the demand is there, increasing volumes when you can sold them, at the risk of course of going a little too far when the market reverses, is something tough to manage for a brand, not only for RM.
I remember when people said in around 2010-2012 that prices were much too high. However, they grew afterwards and they sold a lot of watches.
So, what conclusion do I make? Well, if they had said in 2010 "let's stop price rises", they would have lost a very significant amount of revenue.
When you manage a company (whatever it is) a management also has to take into account the fact that things can go less well in the future. Then, it is safer for a company to make reserves when times are good.
I would say they were right not to stop in 2010. This strengthens their financial base to face the future or to develop new products.
Of course, when the decrease comes, the price remain very high and they have to deal with the situation.
I think you're right to mention they have to be careful and I hope that's what they do
Best, Mark
I think FPJ may not be around (or sold) and RM will continue to be strong. I've been hearing the RM this or that complaining for 10 years. There will always be demand [nt]
No offense intended of course.