Independents

Been looking for my first independent watch, and done my research. Each comes with own merits, and own focus.

My list comes down to KV, RWS, RG and FPJ (maybe Urban Jürgensen’s P8 too)

So what would u guys say for each particular strength (or weakness)? Obviously it comes down to each person own preference too.

In particular, I am looking between KV and RWS, something more classic and hand made. RG is very interesting but I think it’s too big (over 42mm) and pricier?

I have been told that a watch with RWS would wait til 2025 and KV is about 1-2 years wait time.


Why would RWS take so much longer?

JFP, you just need to go to the boutique and see for yourself. Some wonderful stuff.

would take a lot longer because he currently produces 10 to 12 watches a year whereas Kari Voutilainen produces 40 plus. Still very small numbers but you can see how the waiting list accumulates.  I am waiting for a RW Smith Series 2 and one thing to bear in mind is that this watch is 13.5mm thick which is pretty thick compared to its competitors. Kari is great at making bespoke dials especially as he now has his own dial factory and the variations are almost limitless. Due to the longer waiting time, RW Smith watches would attract a premium in the used market, something that might be a consideration. These watches though to me are keepers as they are among the best made watches out there.  RW Smith's movement finishing is more frosted in line with the English style of watchmaking whereas Kari's spots a lovely balance large balance wheel with the more familiar Swiss finishing.



Photos borrowed from Deployant

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All offering different things!
First I would take out FPJ from the list. Their watches are stunning are are truly beautiful, but you buy 'off the shelf' so you get what they offer. You cannot go wrong with an FPJ, but it is the least 'independent' out of the list. The other 3, you can get a piece made for yourself and have an input into the concept!
So from the other 3, they all offer something different from each other and again have pros and cons. RWS, you have to be willing to accept the looong waiting time and like his particular finish/design (my personal preference on looks is more swings towards KV/RG), but you will end up with a wonderful piece. With KV and RG, you can get involved with the whole process (more so with KV) and have your personal input into the dials, hands, movement finishing, etc, etc, etc.... this I found with KV was very rewarding and you end up something very special which is just yours.
Have you considered Gronefeld too? Stunning watches, amazing finishes and again you get something special just for you.
All of the above are really nice guys... just ask the questions and one will click... you can then start on your route. Just keep us posted on it
Cheers
Andrew

Yah my choice is now down to KV and RWS..

I somehow met a collector here who might be able to show both RWS and KV in person.. hopefully it would make the decision easier (or harder really haha)

Anyway, it will come to down to $$$ too, as I have only realised the RWS could be significantly over my budget..

Hi Sham1

Do u know the price range for RWS series 1?
After consultation with other collectors, indeed RWS is growing on me.. But if not mistaken, RWS s1 YG is about £81k whereas KV vintg 8 platinum is about 85k CHF.. so reality checks in as I am hoping for another watch after this..

I am giving strong consideration for Grönefeld too..

it is best to contact him directly (see website) to get the latest price. Kari's prices are more stable and the price you quoted for his watches varies depends on the model and the metal you choose which I you may be aware of.  In terms of metals, Kari also makes his watches in titanium and stainless steel, both metals of which Roger does not make.  Go for a RW Smith and you will have a watch that is not only special but terribly rare.

So, it's an independent, but with some of the advantages of a bigger brand for service and customer care.

FPJ watches are very much meant to be everyday wearers, even the sonneries. Of course, you can do that with any of these, but FPJs wear very well and the proportions tend to be great as well.

Consider also the size and width of each one and how it will be on your wrist, day in and day out. Above a certain width and the watch will not easily slide under a shirt cuff. Is that an issue that you may notice after several weeks of wearing?

Consider the movement, if that is important or not.

Finally, if you like the British style of finishing and a George Daniels movement, you may wish to consider a Charles Frodsham: watchesbysjx.com l

Enjoy!

The only down side is the size at 42.2mm.
If you are serious you should get on it quickly because there is a 3-4 years' waiting list since they launched last year. Given the style and low key finishing, I suspect the buyers are not your run of the mill collectors, but more of the horological dweeb kind(yours truly).

Is the wait really 3-4 years now?
Has the price gone up since that initial raise a few months after the roll-out?

They are not the only one doing this. Some other English watchmakers are doing the same thing because of protracted build time and queue. My take on this is it's down to Brexit, so watchmakers wants to protect themselves.

What metal and markers option did you go for?
I am awaiting a 22k with romans one in 1st quarter 2020. The 42mm seems like the only caveat for me. It will fit my wrist no problem, it's only that I bought a 36mm watch and love it...

As for price raises, they have to factor costs 4 years from now, so this is one case where it is a little understandable.
They won't raise prices on someone who has put down a deposit, however. Someone who got in at the original price will pay that and nothing more.

The 22k was too special to miss, but will be up my sleeve when I wear it out!
Everything about Frodsham seems above board, it just seems to be how they do it. No compromises. Their pricing seems to be very fair based on the scale they are working at. Even the difference in price for case material is quite small.
I asked Jack Forster why he hadn't reviewed the watch and he said he'd asked to and Frodsham politely declined. I'm guessing this means they are doing well and don't want to rev up additional buzz when there is already a long enough waitlist.
I'm glad they are doing well! There must be a few real watch nerds out there.

Great feedback guys! Appreciate it

Unfortunately I currently live in Australia, and FPJ is probably the “best indie” I can get here, with very limited stocks.

That’s why visiting workshops is very difficult for me, and I have to rely on internet research and my friends experience too. Yes my fellow friends have recommended KV at this stage, and I feel the same in particular like said above, the dial option is limitless and teardrop lugs are so beautiful. In terms of the finishing mechanical quality, I presume KV and RWS is very much the same..

UJ is another consideration too, P8 movement is impressive, and more affordable compared to KV and RWS if I remember correctly? But unable to customise is the drawback for me.

A side note, say if I do manage to buy from one of those independent watchmakers, do I pick it up from the workshop and able to meet him in person? It will be cherry on the cake and something I won’t be getting from one of those big brands of course!

But you should take note who speaks fluent English and who only has a basic command of it. Bring along a friend to translate if possible.

to visit the workshop and meet thewatchmakers in person. Gives the watch so much more value imho

Things that were important to me:

Thanks guys.. one more silly question.


KV calls it “double wheel escapement”
Charles Frodsham “double impulse escapement”
UJ’s P8 pivoted detent escapement
RWS co axial

Are they really the same thing or concept?

By the way, one thing with indis, say KV, who is going to service it once he retires? I am pretty sure he will have his workshop running, but just wondering if all those independent watchmakers have some sort of succession plan in place?

The double wheel and co-axials all come from A.L. Breguet's Natural Escapement, a lubrication-free escapement with clear advantages over the swiss lever. Unfortunately, there was an issue of backlash in the gears that Breguet couldn't solve with the engineering of his day and he had to abandon the movement.
You may want to dive deeply into it, but the short answer is that KV's version has the same issues as the original, but with today's fine tolerances, these are small enough that you have an accurate wristwatch. KV's daughter is learning the trade, so maybe she will take over!
George Daniels solved the problem entirely. First with his genius double impulse impulse chronometer escapement (used in his famous Space Traveller, which you should look up right now). With the engineering of his time, he thought it was too large a movement for a wristwatch. The 42mm, 10mm thick Frodsham is the first ever wristwatch to use this movement. It is truly lubricant free and should have excellent rate stability.
The brillant co-axial was George Daniels' way to take his ideas and apply them in a form that could more easily fit a wristwatch. Wristwatches with this escapement tend to be on the thicker side, and require a tiny bit of lubricant in the escapement if silicon parts are not used. However, they are known for having excellent rate stability.
That's the short answer, I'll let more knowledgeable folks chime in with additions/corrections.

Then the KV double wheel and FPJ chronometer optimum. Its characteristics explained by Spangles.

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