I recently spent a bit of time at a well known PP ad in Singapore. I had gone there to give two of my mom's PP's for servicing. The gentleman in charge of PP was very nice and showed me some really exceptional PP's while I was waiting for the service receipts to be prepared. What shocked me was that the Calatrava 5123 launched in 2012 was priced at an obscene amount. Iam not sure if I'm allowed to discuss prices here, but just for comparison sake, it is SGD 9K more than my Vacheron Constantin Patrimony Traditionelle Manual Wind with calibre 4400. This 5123 and 4400 are literally direct competitors with the better newer movement belonging to VC's calibre 4400.  

The prices are not set for costs & development reasons. The right price is the price people are willing to pay to get the desired object. That's all.

The Patek are not overpriced if people buy them.

Fx

However, i would say that it is not unreasonable to wish that they were cheaper!!

Would you be prepared to pay SGD $ 37000 for the 5123?

I think that this is the underlying reason why some complicated models are discontinued recently.  If customers refuse to pay the price asked, they sit in AD's inventory.  Just supply and demand.

come a bit down (not all that much down) to earth. I believe PP excels in the realm of complicated / grand complications, and this is an area where their prices are justified. For example, I can understand the price of the Chronograph 5170, as it is new an in-house and there were development costs involved. But for regular time-only (and time with date) models whether manual or automatic (including Nautilus and Aquanaut), I feel PP's cost far more than what they are.

Pp has the best aftermarket system in place: any watch, any part can be serviced at any time. This adds to the collectibility of the marque which allows pp to hold its value. So more expensive but also easier to sell at a later date. That said, I agree with your assessment on certain simple models (excluding vintage of course). 

I saw a 5123 at my AD when searching for a watch, tried it on, and found it to be the most comfortable watch on the market. Love the lugs recessed  into the body so they don't dig into my wrist. It was 3-5K more than similar VC/ALS and AP, but it was comfortable and a PP. Pulled out check book and took it. 

Luxotica, an eyewear monopoly, makes glasses and sunglasses very overpriced.  But, people are still willing to pay for them.  

At a concert, ball game, etc? Just because some people are willing to pay it doesn't negate the point that it may or may not be overpriced. 

I think you'll find that most luxury goods are overpriced to varying degrees, and I suppose that the high price and consequent sense of exclusivity is in itself a major draw for some.

And hence there is no right answer
But I understand your post so here's my pov:
I buy what I love and can afford. Obviously I compare brands and references and some elements of relative value and prices come to play.

I didn't buy a calatrava but instead got a vc patrimony Traditionelle with the 4400 movement because of the same points you made. But at the complications level, I got a PP 5146 annual calendar instead of other brands' ACs. For chronograph I got a Lange Datograph and Montblanc Villeret Chronographe grand feu email instead of PP chronographs. For sports watch, I very much wanted a Nautilus but ended up with a Breguet Marine becos it is so beautiful!

Bottomline: it's all a free market and we are in the market to make our choices. If PP prices can be accepted by the market, they won't be considered overpriced from a market standpoint although for us as individuals, perhaps some of their references are when compared to their esteemed competitiors' such as VC, Breguet or Lange etc.

Cheers
Robin

But it does not necessarily exclude all other high end brands. 

Agree with me that PP simple models are overpriced for what they are. I want to raise a few other points:

you wrote

"One of you said that who am I to think something is overpriced if people are willing to pay for them. There are lots of ignorant wealthy people who splurge huge amounts of money on watches by designer brands. Honestly are these watches worth it? Just because some people can pay for these does not validate the prices."

Opinion. I guess if we use economic theory as a guide, then what you are saying is correct. Perhaps it is a combination of demand and supply and markets being logical. But in reality, I see a whole new scenario . I see a world with a lot of wealthy and super wealthy people who are not well informed of the choices they make and they don't analyze the opportunity cost when they buy something. And this is perhaps why so many expensive products exist which probably don't deserve to exist. 

I like! Count me in

Cordially,
Oliver

i find it hard to justify over 30k for a stainless steel watch

... this is a crazy hobby !

 

And no.

Let's take 5170. This watch is having a crazy price tag taking into account that it is a (simple) chronograph. The result is that many dealers are ready to negotiate the price and give a good discount. Also from the second hand market it is possible to buy a new watch with around 30% discount.

Then something like 5131. People would buy this watch from the authorized dealers even Patek would increase the price with 50% subject that the supply would be the same. So this reference is not obviously overpriced.

I am quite "amused" looking at the pricing of watches like 5167 Aquanaut and the simplest of Calatrava collection. The movement of 5167 is really nothing special and still this watch is costing with its rubber strap like 2 x Rolex. So yes, the basic Pateks are overpriced.

Finally the good news: we do not need to pay the price. I am a good example of that freedom of choice and I'm posting this wearing my 5167...

Best, Kari

Saw Calatrava 5227G in Patek boutique..........

Nice simple piece, dust cover back, date window, second hand, lacquer dial, pin buckle........nice..........but simple.

But, bitte..........the Price!!!   Incomprehensibly high - at least to me - for me price/value ratio does not exist on a piece like that.

Of course, prices are relative, and there are buyers for Patek that are not price sensitive.  And, of course, patek will charge what the market will bear.

Would love to know Patek profit margins!!

Low value for the money.

Best, Kari

for almost any brand in that range, can´t we?!

By the way, you are right we don´t discuss prices here at PuristSPro.

But what´s about value? Value is based on knowledge, interestes, favours ... and very subjective at the end.

For example:

I think the Ref. 5950 offers a better value than the Ref. 5170 or the 5070.

Just in case, don´t burn me. It is really subjective as mentioned above and I hope your decisions are based on you own values

Oliver

No message body

I certainly want PP's price to be cheaper.  Who doesn't want?

Many years ago, buyers from China prepared to pay retail price and if the AD gave them 5%-10% discount, they were satisfied.

Today, they ask for discount and are not interested in 5%-10% anymore. In fact, they are not that ignorant anymore.

Regards

Ling

In fact, some of the 2013 models you see some prices are actually lower then 2012. Eg is the 2013 5205R is cheaper then the 5205G price list. I think all NEW PP models will have slight adjustment on prices. PP realise they cannot sell their watches if they continue to increase prices.

The price for 5205R is the same as for 5205G, $49.5K.

kpk, PP pricing in Singapore is a but unusual in that prices for watches 2012 and before are very overpriced.  The 2013 new model prices are more in line with the rest of the world. If you compare the price of the PP 5170J vs. the PP 5170G, it is much higher for the 5170J in Singapore - almost 20% higher than the 5170G.  In the rest of the world, the 5170G is about 2-3% higher in price, in line with most other models for the white gold vs. yellow gold price difference.

So I would not be surprised if the 5227 (Basel 2013 model) costs quite a bit less than the 5123 (Basel 2012 model) in Singapore, where in the rest of the world, it is the other way around.

 

we still have our

PuristSPro.com Discussion Board Code of Conduct

In case you really don´t know it, here we go: patek.watchprosite.com =

Extract:

• Posts about street prices and seller references:

  Connoisseurship, ownership and collecting is about much more than price and who sells what. Price and seller references tend to overwhelm the other more subtle, though equally important aspects of the aficionado experience.

Thanks, for your understanding!

Oliver