Greg D
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Well said Mo...
And sorry to hear of your bad experiences Thomas.
My experiences have also been positive. I've had a few problems - and have received a level of prompt and personal service I could never have expected from a major brand. I also have a watch where I expect this would not be the case were I to have problems.
On a used piece where you may not have met the maker, servicing can even be an excuse to meet the maker.
Some of this clearly depends on the size of the company - and as Mo says - the attitude and attention of the person at the top.
One of my more unusual and 'risky' pieces with the first run of a new movement even has a lifetime guarantee from the maker!
That aside I think the whole industry (not just independents) have a problem with some of the most complex pieces, where the computer models work fine - but in the metal there are tolerance and production quality issues which can cause problems. Runs are not high enough - and devlopment times too short for these problems to be found before shipping.
We all know of major brands having these problems as well as independents (sometimes you suspect that some complex pieces have never been regularly worn and just don't work on the wrist).
As Mo says - buy the maker- and have a realistic view that servicing a complex piece can take a lot of work which one must expect to pay for - esp if you are not the first owner.
And to add to Mo's thinking, I've just bought a used piece from a major brand that where I gather there were some problems - but it's just so interesting...
- Greg
Why Independents?
Views please! Why do you like them? How much of the desire to own independents is because we know they are very limited in availability? that we know when someone asks you can say, Kari made 40 of these, of Dufour made 200 over 6 years or am still waiting...
Snobism, fresh air, originality?
1/ Snobism, as, like you said, you love to walk in the street and no one has the same watch than you... It is not only about independants, but it is easier with Independants to not have everybody's watch, as the production is, by definition, very limited....
Have you plan to or acquire any independent watch that you fancy?
I don't recall you talk much about them. I myself is because of the connection of the watchmaker and me. Some of them are rather inspirational. Best Tyler
There are 2 Independants I appreciate a lot.
KV and De Bethune. I respect a lot, MBF, but I can't wear his watches, so not for me, as well as Urwerk. KV and De Bethune are really my cup of tea. I would compare KV as an exquisite Vacheron, and De Bethune as a crazy U.N, 2 brands which are very close ...
I love DeBethune
but their size however is unfriendly to my wrist. I haven't reach the point yet to fully appreciate a highly finish watch. The one without anything special but just out of this world finishing. I really like some of the younger generation independent like...
PSM is really cool.
Cool watches, cool guy, yes, I see the connection mentionned above between watches and their creator as a big argument, in PSM case. As for Romain Jerome, I feel like totally lacking education about his watches, I don't get them. But it is very personal, ...
Man ... I f***ed my last respone
i meant to type Romain Gauthier. Not Romain Jerome. I can't stand this brand. Thank you for not being disgusted. (Have you?) Best Tyler
Aah, now that is different.
I had the opportunity to see his watches several times, and I like his work, especially on the dial. Best, Nicolas.
servicing is a REAL problem.
In my personal experience (and not so humbly, I probably have as much or more experience with this issue as anyone, since I have wrist time with so many independent pieces, over a fairly long period of time such that they are due, some overdue, for servic...
You are very right
The servicing aspect is critical. When we're in that phase of excitement about a new watch, we tend to forget about it. I understand your horror story. I had a similar experience with a brand that is one of the most prominent independents (although probab...
We're on the same wave, Thomas...
This is one of my very important criteria at the moment of the decision. It may even be a NO GO for me. I don't want my Ferrari to perpetually stay in the garage. Best, Nicolas.
Wow, Thomas
them's fighting words.... I have not yet had to service my independent watch... I own exactly one independent watch... but I have heard your stories through the 'grapevine'... I guess they are true. This is just plain wrong. Sad to hear--and they do deser...
Because no else has my watch .....
or if they do - I can count them on one pair of hands ;-) Oh and just on the servicing note ;-) buy correctly and almost anybody can service the indies watch ;-) (if one dares ;-) Does sounds like Thomas had a real rough ride with his indy but my PSM - se...
You've explained it yourself :)
Great points there mate! But I think apart from the "limited" and "rarity" reason, here's a few others that I can think of that apply to myself and I'm sure to many others here too: 1) Strong individual DNA - each Independent (especially successful ones) ...
Don't get me wrong!
Obviously i am not saying that this is a way to be part of the elite as there are probably plenty of other ways you could do that and many more simpler ways!!! I think Customer Experience is a very big factor. Who can get to talk to the likes of Volker or...
I didn't say that for you.
I meant that it was the big risk, as to own a PP or any other high end watch. Theere is a wider way to consider the question: Why do we get a watch? For What it is, or for what it represents? Indeed, we can include Independants in this question. I agree w...
Interesting!
That we have different big brand tastes with similar inde tastes! Does this mean big brand marketing works? And that with self discovery of independents this reflects our true self? Love this forum! Happy Watching! justindependent
No, we have same tastes in big brands, and we slightly differ on Independants.
I don't think marketing works on us, JCY... We are certainly able to make our own judgement on watches, and discussions here can give a better shape on our views, I think. But I agree on the fact that our " approach " of Independants reflects, in a certai...
because there is soul because the watches are a reflection of
the man who made them. These watches are also made with no design or quality compromise, something that mainstram brands cannot do as they need to keep prices within limits (not sure there is a market for $60k+ time only watches from VC or PP) and appeal ...
i thought the soul of and the watch itself is a reflection of the man who wears..
... it too other than those who made them.
Agree, and it applies to all our watches...
... although it is often presented with more clarity in a watch from an independent. Something along the lines of a horse versus a camel (being a horse designed by a committee). A
Inspiration
A watch may be greatly inspired, but will it inspire me - or will I merely be enjoying and admiring it? Will it give me a nudge in the right direction, some unsuspected thoughts and ideas - from a different perspective? The ones that do are nearly all fro...
Independents represent art and individual craftmanship in an age of mass produced goods
I agree with much of the above -- quality of construction, inspiration (yes), soul (great phrase), but, to me, the reason I have become attracted to independents during the past year of horological awakening is that independents are, indeed, independent a...
I'm drawn by the philosophy of
the watchmaker, his concept and his dedication. Some independent watchmakers do that and their work ethics and passion inspire my life too. As what some have mentioned, servicing is indeed a big problem. It's not just what if the watchmakers are no longer...
+ 1 +
I own many independent pieces--Journe, Vianney H, Haldimann, KV, MIH, Ochs und Junior, and have owned others. Service has been excellent, never taken more than three months (I won't tell you tales of Patek and Lange on service time), and all reasonable. I...
CL, Douglas, you leave me in a quandary...
What happens when our experiences, all from good men of honor and integrity, diverge so greatly? Should I name names, give specifics, as you have? Suppose my experience with a specific independent watchmaker cum god specifically named in this thread was n...
Sorry Thomas.....Obviously
my experiences are much limited compare to yours. I dunno what to say but it seems like I have been very lucky so far with all my servicing experiences. The only one time when I really have to return a service is from Journe. It was quite a long time ago....
I don't mind the contradiction - a variety of experiences is to be expected. The problem
was the specifics - with such explicit specifics, it too easily leads readers to assume or expect that level of service, which 1. is simply unrealistic as a matter of course 2. is directly contradictory to mine (I like that master independent very much, a...
I understand your dilemma and agree
with your point and concern. I don't mean to be specific but it just happen that these are the very few independent watches I have that have ever gone for servicing. One year of servicing....gosh....that will drive me crazy. Sorry to hear about your exper...
It is a delicate balance, Thomas!
You are in an extraordinarily 'powerful' position because you 'buy ink by the gallon' as the saying goes... But you in particular would know the exaggerated impact one or two 'bad stories' can have when issued forth through the internet... or good stories...
the flip side of the personal experience
I think it was said elsewhere that one of the great attractions of dealing with the independents, other than their beautiful creations, is the personal nature of it. And that is undoubtedly true. I've been able to meet F.P., Vianney, Peter S-M, the McGoni...
Very astute comment ...
If they (or their watch) lets you down, you feel it even more. Thanks! Andrew
servicing - all in the price?
I want to put this issue to you all. Isn't this all in the price? If you paid 18k for a watch (and I bet I know which one you are talking about) and then service costs 2500 with a 4 mth wait time, would you be happier if you paid 25k for the watch and 100...
It should be. Too often it is not.
My experience directly contradicts CL's, twice. In many cases, with indies or with brands, I've had to call the SAV director or CEO; I shouldn't have to. Cheers, TM
Should we all stop getting married,or getting girlfriends or..
knowing new women just because MAYBE,in the future we MIGHT fall out of love or SHE might cheat on us? C mon,I dissent from my friend Nico,and to an extent to Thomas(mind you I am new in the game so I didn t have to go through the SAV nightmares he is bee...
Well said Mo...
And sorry to hear of your bad experiences Thomas. My experiences have also been positive. I've had a few problems - and have received a level of prompt and personal service I could never have expected from a major brand. I also have a watch where I expect...
agree with Mo, not even sure servicing can be an issue as
unless the watch has an extremely unconventionnal movement or parts. Today we have watchmakers who can service watches made 50, 100 or 200 years ago by makers who no longer exist so I can't really see this being different for independent makers.
I din'd say anything about one brand servicing watches from another. I have a great Rolex
story for you. A friend of mine owned the Rolex chrono below which was bought in the 40s by her father and passed down to her. The watch in the early 2000 was in a sorry state and she took it to Rolex for servicing and they refused as the watch was too ol...
Ok, let's take an example.
Imagine my U.N Freak is dead... Do you think any other brand than U.N can repair it? I totally agree with you if we have to service movements with a classic construction, but what if they become too complex, too specific? Do you still think any watch make...
that's why in my original post I stated that servicing should't be an issue unless
"the watch has an extremely unconventionnal movement or parts". The Freak could be an issue because it uses silicium (silicon?) components. You hit the nail on the head in your reply, servicing can be an issue for all brands not just independents. Another...
LOL, Alex.
Seriously, I feel that the topic of the Service, a quallity and reliable service, will be the " nerf de la guerre " in the very next years, and that a severe selection may happen very fast. Yes, the Freak uses silicon for its dual escapement. I fear the m...
Good point Alex......
lets have fun with watches without speculating too much,,,the future?????Anything can happen but I can t worry about what is not an issue now....now I have other things to worry about..like finding the founds for my next watch............ha ha.. Mo
Yes indeed Alex, however there is a ....
noticeable difference between timepieces of the XVIIIth century and some among those produced nowadays : the use of new materials. This can (IMHO shall) be a problem in 20 or 30 years from now as the technics that allow these materials to be used may not ...
yes I know and agree and it is exactly what I said in my original post as well as in my
reply to Amanico! On the other hand which are the independent watchmakers who use Silicon in their watches? I'm not refering to DeBethine as I consider them a brand and not an independent maker.
I love those PuristS discussions ...
and Mo you have some very good points Let me add some visualization: She bought herself a beautiful watch ... ... and they will have to discuss where they can find someone to restore it. Who said heritage will be easy Let´s go ahead with passion! Oliver...
Long live Passion...
and PassionS ...without them almost no worth living...... Well visually put Oliver...... Mo
Even if I don't have one... When man, vision, press release and product come together...
and you see all that translate into a beautiful piece, sublime. because it is about integrity. and how far a person is able to go with it and put himself on the dial. With indepedents, the risk is part of the romance. And I would also factor in the possib...
This is why ....
To be able to meet the watchmaker which adds a soul to the watch.... It is not just buying a watch but it is all the communication, travelling, meeting .... the whole experiene which is facinating...
Thanks...I keep think of the elder Dornbluth!!
When I think of the brand!! Best, Horo
My 2 cents on independents....
Some major brands are really good at creating good looking cosmetic watches.... Whilst some others are specializing in making the movement itself... --- and some independents are just too good at both of them ----- cheers! Happy valentines day folks.... B...
Interesting ...
Some " major " brands do really offer something very different... - " Major " ... I doubt we can qualify U.N as a major brand. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of U.N watches, as I'm an happy Freak and Sonata owner. But how many watches are made, each ye...
Ulysee Nardin
What i meant by major brands in general are those brands affiliated with or belong to some big horology groups ie. Richmont. They sometimes don't even have their own in-house movement and need to outsource from their affiliated brands. CMIIW, but Lange an...
Lange belongs to Richemont, yes.
But U.N belongs to no one else than themselves, AFAIK. So can we consider U.N as an Independant? I would say yes, as well as Patek or Rolex, for example. Now, some will tell you that " Independant " is a concept which is very specific, a kind of state of ...
Competition...
To be completely honest with you... i think it works the other way around... IMHO, only few independents can compete with major brands in terms of demands.... especially in Asia where the watch ads and magazines are scarce and need to be imported from out...
I love Independents
For me my collection is now being focused more towards the independents than anything else (apart from one loved brand), it is a break away from having 20,000 people wearing the same watch and having truly original and handmade designs. I also feel that y...