Independents

Views please!  Why do you like them? 

How much of the desire to own independents is because we know they are very limited in availability?  that we know when someone asks you can say, Kari made 40 of these, of Dufour made 200 over 6 years or am still waiting for the Volker VA?

and if this is a reason, is this a good reason?  Discuss!

for the record, yes I like that I can walk in the street and no one has a Kari on!!  But of course i do love it more than any other time only watch on the planet!

Happy Watching!

justindependent

1/ Snobism, as, like you said, you love to walk in the street and no one has the same watch than you...

It is not only about independants, but it is easier with Independants to not have everybody's watch, as the production is, by definition, very limited.

That is a dangerous criteria, ad it may also be related to the feeling  ( or the willing ) to belong to an Elite, but well, I prefer not to develop...

2/ Fresh Air, because some of them offer us some original watches you will  probably never see with some big brands.

Here, I think about MBF, for example, or Urwerk?

3/  You want something which is closer to your tastes in horology, which can't be made by a big brand.

An exceptional finish on the movement, a personalized dial ... ( K.V is an excellent example ).

Best,

Nicolas

 

 

 

I don't recall you talk much about them. I myself is because of the connection of the watchmaker and me. Some of them are rather inspirational.

Best
Tyler

KV and De Bethune.

I respect a lot, MBF, but I can't wear his watches, so not for me, as well as Urwerk.

KV and De Bethune are really my cup of tea.

I would compare KV as an exquisite Vacheron, and De Bethune as a crazy U.N, 2 brands which are very close to my heart.

The main problem I have with Independants is the Service of their watches.

If I have to sevice them,  or to repair them, who will do it if they're not here anymore???

And if they're here, at what cost, and how much time will it take?

Getting a watch is one thing, servicing and reparing it is equally important, to me.

This is a thing we should think more about it, in my opinion.

Best,

Nicolas.

but their size however is unfriendly to my wrist. I haven't reach the point yet to fully appreciate a highly finish watch. The one without anything special but just out of this world finishing.

I really like some of the younger generation independent like Romaine Jerome and Peter Speake-Marin

Best
Tyler

Cool watches, cool guy, yes, I see the connection mentionned above between watches and their creator as a big argument, in PSM case.

As for Romain Jerome, I feel like totally lacking education about his watches, I don't get them.

But it is very personal, and I guess this personal view is all about Independants.

Best,

Nicolas.

i meant to type Romain Gauthier.

Not Romain Jerome. I can't stand this brand.

Thank you for not being disgusted. (Have you?)

Best
Tyler

I had the opportunity to see his watches several times,  and I like his work, especially on the dial.

Best,

Nicolas.

In my personal experience (and not so humbly, I probably have as much or more experience with this issue as anyone, since I have wrist time with so many independent pieces, over a fairly long period of time such that they are due, some overdue, for servicing.) servicing takes too long and costs too much, and in many cases, are unreliable (as unreliable as the much vilified "big brands" with their many "come backs")

I recently had a grail piece serviced - took nearly a year, cost $4500USD, and within a few months started running fast again, the very reason it went in.

An independent who used to have a dedicated brand forum here took in an early piece (I won't name the model, it would instantly identify the maker) for service, I pointed out one of the issues - a click that was "flipped upside down" and was not engaged with the ratchet wheel. Besides the routine servicing, I specifically asked this be corrected (it didn't effect the functioning of the watch because of the unusual escapement...) for, if nothing else, aesthetic reasons.

Many months later and again, a $$$multi-thousand dollar$$$ service bill later, the watch came back with, yes, a flipped out of position ratchet wheel click.

I love the independents;

I have long championed them, AT MY PERSONAL EXPENSE.

I have provided them free publicity, AT MY PERSONAL EXPENSE, for many years.

But if I don't start seeing some serious improvement and good faith gestures in this regard, I'm tempted to start outing each and every one of them, by name...

I'm getting pretty sick of this abuse (not just to me, in my personal case, but in many other cases that I personally know about, and know the details of...)

So far, Kari has been very good about this, in my personal experience...

TM

The servicing aspect is critical.

When we're in that phase of excitement about a new watch, we tend to forget about it.

I understand your horror story. I had a similar experience with a brand that is one of the most prominent independents (although probably a bit too big to be discussed on this particular board, but very well known and still very independent). It was one of his simpler watches. I thought it might be running slow and it had been a while since it had been serviced. So I brought it by the boutique. Not only did I get the typical forecast that it would be four to five months before I saw my timepiece again, but I was informed that the servicing would cost about US $2,500 (in excess of 10% of the original price of the watch!). Mind you, this is a watch that really didn't have anything wrong with it, was in mint condition and merely needed a regular look-see and maybe a minor adjustment. Well, to paraphrase Ayn Rand, I uttered the word "No." (Annoyingly, the boutique wouldn't take "no" for an answer at first and, after engaging in some very patronizing "advice" to me, finally deigned to return my property to me). There was zero flexibility, zero discussion, zero willingness to work with a customer. I have purchased 2 timepieces from this manufacturer at a cost in the neighborhood of $40K; there is zero chance there will be a third.

On the other hand, we consumers must set our expectations reasonably. We know these smaller manufacturers are limited. We know that you will never, ever (I don't care how good a watchmaker you are) get the same level of ultimate reliability in a small-run, hand-made production as you will with much larger runs of watches. It is simply not possible from an engineering or statistical standpoint. So, in a sense, but going with the smaller independent watchmakers, we are signing up for this kind of treatment. And, since they are smaller, have less capital and are less diversified, the risk of going out of business is always there and always greater than it would be for, say, Rolex.

At the same time, the purchase cost of some of these limited-run, independent pieces has skyrocketed. So the risk being borne by the purchaser is now that much greater.

Seems to me that the only real alternative is third party servicing. Obviously this is hugely risky if the buyer of the watch attempts it on his or her own, as the buyer will typically not be able to tell ex ante whether the jeweler knows what they are doing (and the smaller the manufacturer, particularly if the movement is in-house, the higher the risk of ignorance). To the extent the movement is complex or unusual, the risk is, again, exponentially higher. And of course, whatever "warranty" you might have from the manufacturer will be instaneously voided (I personally discount this latter risk, as I don't ascribe any particular value to these "warranties" in the case of the smaller houses).

But it seems to me that the smaller houses could (consistent with the antitrust laws) -- and should, in the interest of providing reassurances to current and future customers -- get together and work on putting in place a network of third party certified workshops that could be called upon by customers to do, at the very least, the more routine or simpler repairs (periodic "tune ups" and cleanings). This would also have the salient effect of freeing up manufacturer resources to make new watches and develop new models, and it should enable the cost of at least the more usual types of servicings to be reduced. Rebuilds and the like would continue to go back to the source. We tend to treat these timepieces are sacred objects and most of us would blanch at the idea of sending one anywhere but the manufacturer to be attended to -- but the fact is that, with proper training and documentation, many of the routine tasks can be safely undertaken this way.

I agree with your premise that unless the smaller houses deal with this problem in some way, it could come back to haunt them.

 

This is one of my very important criteria at the moment of the decision.

It may even be a NO GO for me.

I don't want my Ferrari to perpetually stay in the garage.

Best,

Nicolas.

them's fighting words....

I have not yet had to service my independent watch... I own exactly one independent watch... but I have heard your stories through the 'grapevine'... I guess they are true.

This is just plain wrong.

Sad to hear--and they do deserve to be outed like any other brand would be on any brand's forum...

Thank you for sharing. This brings in the very human element of all watchmaking. Another reason we love watches made by hand... and 'the dark side'....

or if they do - I can count them on one pair of hands ;-)
Oh and just on the servicing note ;-) buy correctly and almost anybody can service the indies watch ;-) (if one dares ;-) Does sounds like Thomas had a real rough ride with his indy but my PSM - serviced recently - stunning and turn around almost unheard of in time period!

But don't tell everyone ;-) about the indies ;-)

Great points there mate!

But I think apart from the "limited" and "rarity" reason, here's a few others that I can think of that apply to myself and I'm sure to many others here too:

1) Strong individual DNA - each Independent (especially successful ones) have their own very unique DNA in their watches. Take an example, who can get past the beautiful guilloche dial and large-ring hands of Kari? Look at those MACHINES from MB&F! The futuristic but romantic design of De Bethune... The pure British class of Roger Smith's creations.... I can go on forever but you get the drift. They offer very alternative styles to what the main manufactures make.

2) Highest quality - Kari, Dufour, Smith, etc... these guys can do it better than the big houses and we appreciate it! Need I say more about this point?

3) "Customer" Experience - dealing with an Independent is very different to dealing with a manufacture. You deal directly with the watchmaker what exactly you want, and you will participate a lot in the project. Because of your personal involvement throughout the manufacturing of the watch, it's customised to your taste to a certain degree. The same can't be said of a model from a large manufacture. Also, the Independents are very friendly people to work with and after having communicated with a few of them, I'm even more happy to go the Independent way!

I'm sure others can add to this!

Obviously i am not saying that this is a way to be part of the elite as there are probably plenty of other ways you could do that and many more simpler ways!!!

I think Customer Experience is a very big factor.  Who can get to talk to the likes of Volker or Kari?  The understanding of their thought process is amazing.

We all love something different, especially in a world nowadays when this is becoming more and more difficult.  Information and product spreads so fast these days.  It is refreshing that Independents still work with heart and soul to prepare watches for the customer.  Sure Patek makes great watches.  But do you feel the same as receiving a Kari, or a MIH, or Klings or whatever?

DNA - this is an interesting subject.  Yes usually there are clear DNA lines.  You can always spot a Urwerk, a Kari, a MB&F, a Moser or Journe.  But then you see the strong characteristics of a Rolex or AP or Lange or Glashutte too.  This i believe is probably more personal preference or opinions on what they like to have in a watch.

Something else that I do feel in owning independents.  I feel priviledged to own their creations.  It is like they have allowed me the honour of looking after their legacy.

Independents I love:  Kari, Dufour, Volker, Journe, Moser

"Big" Brands that I admire:  Jaeger, Patek, Lange, GP, UN

Not an exhaustive list, but they all have something that touch me.

justindependent

I meant that it was the big risk, as to own a PP or any other high end watch.

Theere is a wider way to  consider the question: Why do we get a watch?

For What it is, or for what it represents?

Indeed, we can include Independants in this question.

I agree with you on the secrete, almost intimate pleasure ( selfish, too, but it is good to be selfish, sometimes...   ) to wear a superb watch.

As I read your answer, I just noticed that you made a parallel with your fav " big brands ", and I noticed that we had more and less the same list, why we differ a bit on Independants...

Interesting!

Best,

Nicolas.

That we have different big brand tastes with similar inde tastes!

Does this mean big brand marketing works? And that with self discovery of independents this reflects our true self?

Love this forum!

Happy Watching!
justindependent

I don't think marketing works on us, JCY...

We are certainly able to make our own judgement on watches, and discussions here can give a better shape on our views, I think.

But I agree on the fact that our " approach " of Independants reflects, in a certain way, our true self and what we're looking for when it comes to watches.

I do believe that there are more than one reason why we can be attracted by U.N and De Bethune, or K.V and V.C.



Best,

Nicolas.

the man who made them.

These watches are also made with no design or quality compromise, something that mainstram brands cannot do as they need to keep prices within limits (not sure there is a market for $60k+ time only watches from VC or PP) and appeal to a larger audience.

I like that a lot.

Well said, Alex. And absolutely true.

... it too other than those who made them.

... although it is often presented with more clarity in a watch from an independent.

Something along the lines of a horse versus a camel (being a horse designed by a committee).

A

A watch may be greatly inspired, but will it inspire me - or will I merely be enjoying and admiring it?

Will it give me a nudge in the right direction, some unsuspected thoughts and ideas - from a different perspective?

The ones that do are nearly all from independent watchmakers - with an individual personality.

amerix

I agree with much of the above -- quality of construction, inspiration (yes), soul (great phrase), but, to me, the reason I have become attracted to independents during the past year of horological awakening is that independents are, indeed, independent artists/craftspeople. Aside from forms of visual art -- painting, sculpture -- there is almost nothing in our world today that is not produced by corporate entities turning out thousands of the identical, or all-but identical, product from factories. It is the same impulse that has led me to decorate my home with antiques and art. To a significant degree, most of the non-independent watchmakers are corporate entities. It is not just the rarity of the independents' watches that attract but it is the reason that they are rare: they are produced in small/individual quantities as expressions of the watchmakers' art and craft -- sometimes more art, sometimes more craft and sometimes and hopefully both. And they need not be expensive -- many independents are quite well priced. We don't buy mechanical watches for their accuracy but for their craft and art; and uniqueness and rarity do matter in the realms of craft and art. To know that my watch is not one of thousands in a run, made in an assembly-line manner (or even 1 in a limited edition of 400) is a point of appreciation. Accordingly, it does give me a particular pleasure to be able to meet the watchmaker, or to email with him or her, about my piece. Whether it is has been (for me) Peter Speake-Marin, or Richard and Marie Habring or Stepan Sarpaneva , the chance to meet or email or chat with the watchmaker himself/herself is one-on-one, bespoke and unique. I couldn't do that with the non-independents. I couldn't request an individualized treatment. With any of them, I might get to meet the corporate president or owner but the designer of the watch? the craftsman? The person whose vision the watch was and who actually played a hand in its construction, testing and sending it to me? Only the independent can offer that. Admittedly, over time, many independents become mini-corporations and the individualism can disappear as rooms of watchmakers get employed. As to those entities, they are become somewhat of less interest to me. That is why, in our modern age, it is to me the uniqueness of the independent that attracts. This message has been edited by SethRL on 2011-02-01 07:57:46

No message body

couldnt express any better myself.

best, Horo

the watchmaker, his concept and his dedication.
Some independent watchmakers do that and their work ethics and passion inspire my life too.
As what some have mentioned, servicing is indeed a big problem. It's not just what if the watchmakers are no longer around,
it's a problem even when they are around.
Their small set up prohibits a costly service department, so when the watchmaker has to dedicate their time on servicing, it becomes really expensive.

So far, my experience with Urwerk and Dufour have been amazing though.
I bought an unworn Simplicity from a collector , when the watch reached me, it was running slow as it stops at some point in a specific angle and then continue to move.
The watch was kept in the safe for 4-5 years and not regularly wound.
So the immediate thing is to send it to Dufour. I was expecting the watch to take a long time for servicing and cost a real bomb since it will be done personally by Dufour himself.
Surprise surprise, the whole process takes less than 2 months and it is free!!!
He took me by surprise and I can see that he really care about his 'babies'.
I can kinda see Kari , Roger Smith , MBF and URWERK being very service oriented too.
Lovesss*CL

I own many independent pieces--Journe, Vianney H, Haldimann, KV, MIH, Ochs und Junior, and have owned others. Service has been excellent, never taken more than three months (I won't tell you tales of Patek and Lange on service time), and all reasonable.

Independent: The ability to think, design, and challenge apart from a large brand image. The ability to change and innovate in many forms without a 'burden' of history or brand efficacy. . . or committees.

I am drawn the the 'philosophy' of being independent.

Best to all,

Douglas

What happens when our experiences, all from good men of honor and integrity, diverge so greatly?

Should I name names, give specifics, as you have?

Suppose my experience with a specific independent watchmaker cum god specifically named in this thread was not just once, but twice - same model (different watch) same long service period (nearly or over a year) and very very expensive (several thousand dollars) and in one case, for a watch delivered new less than two years before I brought it in "just for a check" - so technically still under warranty?

Obviously I set up these sites to bring the news of independents to corners they would not otherwise have been able to reach, but sometimes I wonder if I am doing a disservice by my reticence to share my specific bad experiences, overly concerned about the impact on the "small" independent.

Sure, we hold negative comments to a higher standard than positive comments, and I think this is right and as it should be.

But taken too far, and I am left scratching my head, "What have we wrought?"

(sigh)