Independents

my experiences are much limited compare to yours. I dunno what to say but it seems like I have been very lucky so far with all my servicing experiences.
The only one time when I really have to return a service is from Journe. It was quite a long time ago. The watch came back to me with a missing screw on the case.
It was hilarious and the boutique was very nice to get that rectify. I got the watch back to me within 2 weeks.
Now hearing so much , I'm also very concern about the servicing issue of independent watches. That's one reason I hesitate getting a JDN, a Haldimann , a Vianney, a LF though I really think they are awesome and I simply adore their watches.
It just seems like these watches are not as simple to service as compared to a 3 hands timepiece such as Simplicity or Observatoire.
My heart says independent but my head directs me to the 'mainstream' independent which to me means Richard Mille, Grubel Forsey, FP Journe, pretty limited...sigh.

Again, my apology, don't mean to contradict what you said .

Thomas, I wish you a Happy Chinese New Year ...GongXiFaCai
*CL

was the specifics - with such explicit specifics, it too easily leads readers to assume or expect that level of service, which

1. is simply unrealistic as a matter of course

2. is directly contradictory to mine (I like that master independent very much, as you very well know, and was trying very hard not to name him specifically in my horrible experiences. But as a matter of standards - I will counter weigh extreme negativity - I feel a need now to offer my specific experiences, since you did, as a "counter weight"...

See my dilemma?

Thanks for understanding.

TM

with your point and concern.
I don't mean to be specific but it just happen that these are the very few independent watches I have that have ever gone for servicing.
One year of servicing....gosh....that will drive me crazy.
Sorry to hear about your experience.
*CL

You are in an extraordinarily 'powerful' position because you 'buy ink by the gallon' as the saying goes...

But you in particular would know the exaggerated impact one or two 'bad stories' can have when issued forth through the internet... or good stories for that matter... hmmmmm... food for thought.

These great watchmakers are lucky to have had you help them become 'gods'... and I do hope they hear these words from you and us... and respond rightly... before your/and some of our only human patience reaches the breaking point...

(I have had no such bad experience, but I'm imagining there are some here who share your experience and are also sharing your love/respect for the watchmakers... and saying nothing.

This is a fascinating thread for some big watch collecting reasons/ realities... even I, right this second, am resisting going on another word!

I think it was said elsewhere that one of the great attractions of dealing with the independents, other than their beautiful creations, is the personal nature of it. And that is undoubtedly true. I've been able to meet F.P., Vianney, Peter S-M, the McGonigle Bros., Marco Lange, to name a few. There's definitely a personal connection.

But the flip side of that is, and this goes to the wife/girlfriend analogy, that when they let you down, it can get ugly. That personal connection may make the feeling of helplessness and frustration all the more acute.

There's no answer for it. It's all part of the passion.

ww

If they (or their watch) lets you down, you feel it even more.

Thanks!

Andrew

I want to put this issue to you all. Isn't this all in the price? If you paid 18k for a watch (and I bet I know which one you are talking about) and then service costs 2500 with a 4 mth wait time, would you be happier if you paid 25k for the watch and 1000 for servicing and wait time of 1 mth?

I am not particularly picking on this as an example. But I think you all understand where I am coming from.

There is no right answer for the balance between the independents balancing their work load of servicing and producing more watches. I wonder what you think about this. Should we expect the independents to price their watches and servicing such that we do not have to wait 5 months? And with servicing at a reasonable price (whatever that might be)? I expect something has to give and that the initial watch purchase price will go up for some. Of course I think it was CL who mentioned his experiences with Dufuour and Urwerk and Kari. Maybe for them it is already in the purchase price.

As for another issue brought up by Thomas. He basically said that the QUALITY of the servicing was bad. That is down to attention to detail by the servicing guy. I think we can all hold them to a higher standard but even this is related to staffing and time.

Thoughts? Cut them some slack? Or do we expect more?

I love the inde's. I want to cut them some slack but I have not experienced these issues personally.

My experience directly contradicts CL's, twice. 

In many cases, with indies or with brands, I've had to call the SAV director or CEO; I shouldn't have to.

Cheers,

TM

knowing new women just because MAYBE,in the future we MIGHT fall out of love or SHE might cheat on us?

C mon,I dissent from my friend Nico,and to an extent to Thomas(mind you I am new in the game so I didn t have to go through the SAV nightmares he is been going through so I am still unscarred and innocent).....but......

Should I deprive myself of an extreme pleasure just because one day I might not be able to...bla bla....life is too short and we all buy watches for pleasure..if they will retain value etc good, but most of all,it  is this instant pleasure I need to satisfy....definitely the money I spend on a watch is not the last batch I have, nor I put myself in debt to buy a timepiece,...so with spare money one satisfies his passions,could be women,drugs or....in this case watches.....IF THAT indipendent has a product that makes me go weak and dreamy,well, I will go for it,,,the future?Who cares,that is not the only watch I own anyway and If I will lose that money because Indipendent X doesn t exist anymore or noone can service it(I doubt it...)well...be it..If I want to make an investment I buy an apartment or a piece of land....

Bottom line is LOVE,,if I fall in love with something and I have the means to get it I will....

"I would love that starry sky De Bethune,,it makes me dream,,,,,but I opted for a Patek at the end as it s more sensible purchase".....F£$K that!i will never be that guy.......By the way everybody says that with an Indi you buy the man not the brand....with my experience with De Bethune I bought the brand(AMAZING) and the men behind it,,,men of their own words and with lots of guts,they have my respect and admiration and I bet everything I have that they will take care of me when in need......

Mo

 

This message has been edited by moc on 2011-02-02 00:46:34 This message has been edited by moc on 2011-02-02 00:48:25

And sorry to hear of your bad experiences Thomas.

My experiences have also been positive. I've had a few problems - and have received a level of prompt and personal service I could never have expected from a major brand. I also have a watch where I expect this would not be the case were I to have problems.

On a used piece where you may not have met the maker, servicing can even be an excuse to meet the maker.

Some of this clearly depends on the size of the company - and as Mo says - the attitude and attention of the person at the top.

One of my more unusual and 'risky' pieces with the first run of a new movement even has a lifetime guarantee from the maker!

That aside I think the whole industry (not just independents) have a problem with some of the most complex pieces, where the computer models work fine - but in the metal there are tolerance and production quality issues which can cause problems. Runs are not high enough - and devlopment times too short for these problems to be found before shipping.

We all know of major brands having these problems as well as independents (sometimes you suspect that some complex pieces have never been regularly worn  and just don't work on the wrist).

As Mo says - buy the maker- and have a realistic view that servicing a complex piece can take a lot of work which one must expect to pay for - esp if you are not the first owner.

And to add to Mo's thinking, I've just bought a used piece from a major brand that where I gather there were some problems - but it's just so interesting...

- Greg

unless the watch has an extremely unconventionnal movement or parts. Today we have watchmakers who can service watches made 50, 100 or 200 years ago by makers who no longer exist so I can't really see this being different for independent makers.

 

story for you.

A friend of mine owned the Rolex chrono below which was bought in the 40s by her father and passed down to her. The watch in the early 2000 was in a sorry state and she took it to Rolex for servicing and they refused as the watch was too old and they didn't have parts. I suggested an independent watchmaker who could service the watch and after close to a year the watch came back in superb condition.

So yes we still have capable watchmakers/repairers who can still repair and restiore watches made by the likes of Golay Meylan,  Janvier, Berthoud or Leroy.

On the other hand I'm not sure that if you have a Graham, Thompion, Lemania you can actually take it to the eponymous brand to have them

serviced

All this to say that down the line these independet watchmakers are...well ...watchmakers and their watches have been constructed and developed with servicing in mind and all you need down the road is to find a good watchmaker who could service your watch even if its maker/brand is retired, bust or dead.

 

Imagine my U.N Freak is dead...

Do you think any other brand than U.N can repair it?

I totally agree with you if we have to service movements with a classic construction, but what if they become too complex, too specific?

Do you still think any watch maker, even a very good one, can service or repair it?

I still rememer the example of the GG Grande complication that nobody wanted to service and repair, at a certain time.

If I remember the stroy correctly, I tjink it ended  in the hands of a JLC watchmaker, but nobody wanted to repair it...

Interesting discussion, by the way.

"the watch has an extremely unconventionnal movement or parts". The Freak could be an issue because it uses silicium (silicon?) components.

You hit the nail on the head in your reply, servicing can be an issue for all brands not just independents.

Another funny story I had an issue with a watch from a very well known brand and they never got it straight, and I had it looked at by Sarpaneva who fixed it in no time.... 

 

Seriously, I feel that the topic of the Service, a quallity and reliable service, will be the " nerf de la guerre " in the very next years, and that a severe selection may happen very fast.

Yes, the Freak uses silicon for its dual escapement.

I fear the moment when I will send it for a service...

Best,

Nicolas.

lets have fun with watches without speculating too much,,,the future?????Anything can happen but I can t worry about what is not an issue now....now I have other things to worry about..like finding the founds for my next watch............ha ha..

Mo

 

noticeable difference between timepieces of the XVIIIth century and some among those produced nowadays : the use of new materials.

This can (IMHO shall) be a problem in 20 or 30 years from now as the technics that allow these materials to be used may not be in force anymore AND be out of reach of watch restorers.

Just considere that it is not possible today to repair an Hamilton Pulsar that was produced in the 70s, just because spare part stock are void and no one is able to produced the electronic chip that is inside.

What do you think it will happen for the components that are made of silicium or carbon fiber or any other "exotic" material ?

It is always possible to restore a watch made more than 200 years ago because the material used at that time are still available AND the know-how has been transmitted from masters to apprentices, generation after generation.

To make a steel escape wheel , a skilled watchmaker just needs a workshop and a few machine tools.

To make a silicium escape wheel, one needs a factory with complex industrial procedures.

It will be not a question of cost, the question will be : is it feasible ?

That is the reason why I am very reluctant towards brands that today use these new materials.

Some replies this point by : " Yes, you are right but we anticipate this and our silicium escape wheel can be easily replaced by a steel escape wheel if silicium is no more available "

My reaction is : "So , why using silicium today ? "

And my question to collectors is : "Do you want your watches to be repaired this way ? Do you accept your V12 Ferrari engine to be replaced by a 4-inline-Ford engine, just because aluminium (or any material) is no more available ?"

Ask the watchmakers who have begun their professional life by restoring, I am sure you will get the same approach !

Cheers.

Philippe M

reply to Amanico!

On the other hand which are the independent watchmakers who use Silicon in their watches? I'm not refering to DeBethine as I consider them a brand and not an independent maker.

 

and Mo you have some very good points

Let me add some visualization:

She bought herself a beautiful watch ...

... and they will have to discuss where they can find someone to restore it.

Who said heritage will be easy

Let´s go ahead with passion!

Oliver

and PassionS ...without them almost no worth living......

Well visually put Oliver......

Mo

and you see all that translate into a beautiful piece, sublime.  because it is about integrity.  and how far a person is able to go with it and put himself on the dial.

With indepedents, the risk is part of the romance.  And I would also factor in the possibility of temperament being that these guys are artists. 

I'm WILLING to spend for one regardless of future issues but it's really just that I can't afford it.

Geez, almost like a marriage.

I wish marriages were more like Rolexes

 

 

 

To be able to meet the watchmaker which adds a soul to the watch....

It is not just buying a watch but it is all the communication, travelling, meeting .... the whole experiene which is facinating

Best, Horo

No message body

When I think of the brand!!

Best, Horo

Some major brands are really good at creating  good looking cosmetic watches....



Whilst some others are specializing in making the movement itself...



--- and some independents are just too good at both of them ----- cheers!






Happy valentines day folks....



Best regards,
Alex

No message body

No message body