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Now I'm really curious...

 

So opinions can exist in a vacuum, and one opinion is as "good" and "sound" as another?

Knowing the "context" of an opinion doesn't help "understand" the opinion?

Also, I'd really like to understand what you define as a "collection" and wonder if your "opinion" of Riley's "opinion" would change if that definition differs from the reality.

I don't know about the other posts, but my question to Riley was a sincere one. It had nothing to do with the "worth" of opinions in the abstract; it had nothing to do with "defending" Greubel-Forsey; it had nothing to do with Riley's experience or "wisdom" and real knowledge of watches and watchmaking. I sincerely wanted to know what he saw that was so disappointing, specifically.

The context for MY questions were my own feeling that too many comments, often INCLUDING MY OWN, are so much blah blah, without real substance to back up "opinions" - WHY is Dufour and Voutilainen so exalted? Is it the legally blind leading the clinically blind? The King's New Cloth syndrome? (I happen to feel that Dufour and Voutilainen deserve their exalted reputations, even if I also strongly feel sometimes the typical consumer comments in the past few years go way the hell overboard and elevate them to the level of gods, which I believe, HOPE, neither of them want nor believe themselves...)

In the abstract, and as a matter of principle, I agree with the defense that ALL opinions are interesting and worthwhile to share, if understood and presented in context, and I applaud the follow up posts supporting this idea.

But to say, write, and truly believe that ALL opinions are equal, and that context is unimportant, really, really leave me scratching my head.

It is one thing to RESPECT Hamilton for what it is (or ABR, or Bell and Ross, et al)

It is another thing entirely to not know the difference between a Swatch/Hamilton (or ABR, or Bell and Ross) and a Greubel-Forsey/Dufour/Voutilainen...

Are you serious?

TM

(edited; caps lock got locked accidentally)

This message has been edited by ThomasM on 2008-12-01 06:58:29

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37 Comments view entire thread 

Tourbillon Incliné 24s

 
By: foversta : November 25th, 2008-13:44
I think I didn't post these pictures when I took them several months ago. If I already did it, sorry ! Maybe my fav Greubel-Forsey watch ! I hope to see it again at the Salon Belles Montres. Fr.Xavier...  

forgive me for being honest..

 
By: rijowysock : November 25th, 2008-19:01
but i saw that piece, the double tourb and the other 30* i believe it was at an AD... asked for a loupe and spent quite a bit of time with it and i was not very impressed with the finishing on the movement to be honest.. the tourb was gorgeous and the way... 

Note that the finish on the GF is not the 'usual' Geneva stripes

 
By: 219 : November 26th, 2008-03:47
and involves considerable work. As far as I have ever seen, and I have seen a few GF watches, their finishing is second to none. Their bevelled edging and polish (on the surfaces that require it) is peerless and hence am wondering what area of the watch y... 

....parts i wasnt fully impressed with..

 
By: rijowysock : November 26th, 2008-07:01
i understand no geneva stripes...and im sorry for my lack of exact terminology... the beveled edge has inconsitencies and the corners were not as crisp as i feel they should be....in some areas's the corner seemed almost rounded off... other areas such as... 

again sorry for my bluntness

 
By: rijowysock : November 26th, 2008-07:22
nothing against GF in any way, i feel that maybe i was being to harsh given the nature of their pieces and constructed and assembled im sure by hand which would then lead to small flaws..... but then again i have seen other pieces such as a friends dead s... 

Nothing wrong in expressing an opinion, however, if we look at one of their movements

 
By: 219 : November 26th, 2008-07:35
magnified, you can note how the finish may not look exact as the polished surface meets the 'frosted', but the anglage and bevelled edges are perfectly done and exact. Note the reflection of one angle in the polished edge of another plate. All angles are ...  

Great pic Andrew

 
By: SJX : November 26th, 2008-08:00
I too respect Greubel Forsey's standard of finishing, the frosted plates are subtle yet exude quality. I am surprised to see them compared unfavourably to Journe, while his finishing has improved since the atrocious finishing of his early brass movement p... 

i guess I am not at the same level then...

 
By: rijowysock : November 26th, 2008-08:49
and maybe my inferences were not justified and were more led by opinion on most factors.. as i guess even the crisp'ness of a corner could be related to opinion versus fact... the journe dead seconds tourb i viewed was actually at a location with a master... 

I hope you continue to give your opinions

 
By: albcwc : November 26th, 2008-09:14
There is a notable reluctance on these boards to say anything critical, and sometimes the messenger gets shot, metaphorically speaking of course. Or ignored, if you're not one of the "regular crowd." Usually what few critical comments there are have to do... 

Nice post...

 
By: nickd : November 26th, 2008-10:19
I like the sentiments, and would go along with much of it. I've never been a fan of uber-finishing, and uber-mega-extreme-finishing leaves me cold. I admire the skills, wonder about the mental state of someone willing and able to do it, but couldn't care ... 

I agree with your comments, Nick, and those of ALBCWC, within the

 
By: ThomasM : December 1st, 2008-06:42
context of the words in your posts. albcwc, your observation that there might be a reluctance to be "critical" on this site, is well founded and I too worry about this. So much so that I am often in the awkward position of trying to TONE DOWN by balancing... 

Nothing wrong at all to voice your opinions but...

 
By: DRMW : November 26th, 2008-12:21
"There is a notable reluctance on these boards to say anything critical, and sometimes the messenger gets shot, metaphorically speaking of course." Nothing wrong at all to voice your opinions as a matter of fact it's ENCOURAGED (that's why we have the for... 

Taking things too personally

 
By: 1440 : November 27th, 2008-08:59
goes both ways IMO. I also have a slight problem with having to qualify one's opinion in some ways. An opinion is just that, and to say that someone has to have certain knowledge and experience to express one without getting "shot" as another poster expre... 

Now I'm really curious...

 
By: ThomasM : December 1st, 2008-06:17
So opinions can exist in a vacuum, and one opinion is as "good" and "sound" as another? Knowing the "context" of an opinion doesn't help "understand" the opinion? Also, I'd really like to understand what you define as a "collection" and wonder if your "op... 

Sorry but that's not what I said

 
By: 1440 : December 1st, 2008-15:10
I did not say that context is of no consequence - how you arrived to that conclusion is puzzling and "now I'm really curious...." I guess I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt and not discount their opinions out of hand as I think has happen... 

It seems we'll not reach any sort of "agreement" on this subject...

 
By: ThomasM : December 2nd, 2008-00:20
Hi, Al, "I did not say that context is of no consequence - how you arrived to that conclusion is puzzling and "now I'm really curious...."" You are right, you did not explicitly write "context is of no consequence." It seemed to me that such a conclusion ... 

We may be closer than you think

 
By: 1440 : December 2nd, 2008-07:40
However I get the feeling there is an agenda here and I really don't want to be a part of an attempt to discredit someone. I admit I may be way off base but I would think if there is some view that someone here is not truthful about what they own (you hav... 

Al, clearly you are articulate and rational. You are betrayed by your words

 
By: ThomasM : December 2nd, 2008-08:24
and by your eloquence. As such, I am sure you are aware that you are fully as guilty, maybe more so, of what you are accusing us of - that of trying to "discredit" anyone. By simply making the public accusation, you have branded us. We (I) did no such thi... 

Thomas

 
By: 1440 : December 2nd, 2008-08:54
I agree that stepping back is a good idea - for both of us. Certainly I had considered contacting you in private regarding this discussion, and possibly if your initial reply to my post and the rather extreme conclusions you reached had been to me in a PM... 

No, there is another reason why finish matters: it improves the

 
By: 219 : December 1st, 2008-13:10
performance and longevity of the watch itself. If affects the distribution of the oil, how the parts act against each other, and hence the time keeping properties of the watch itself. Use this website to research the issue. For example, from here: general... 

Finishing...

 
By: nickd : December 1st, 2008-23:24
Hi Andrew, I think the point TCP was making is that the finishing of the acting surfaces is essential - meaning the finish of pivots, acting surfaces of teeth, sink holes, etc. And as the majority of these are to all intents and purposes not visible, I'm ... 

I'm glad to see...

 
By: foversta : November 26th, 2008-16:03
that the pics led to a very interesting discussion about this watch. Fr.Xavier

This is the reason why I am here reading...

 
By: efftee : November 27th, 2008-02:28
...instead of there working. Opinions do not have to be based on anything - not knowledge, experience, nothing. You have a right to your expectations, judgement, whatever you want to call it, by no one else's but YOUR own standards. Trying to force your p...