Interesting question. The British style...

Apr 04, 2018,11:52 AM
 

My interpretation of the data suggests that the British watch industry coalesced around the gilded 3/4 plate design around 1840, when Nicole & Capt relocated from Le Sentier to London, and began supplying ebauches to a number of influential London brands (Frodsham, Dent, etc.). This marked a departure from prior British movement design, which was characterized by a pillar movement with the balance wheel placed on top of the movement, usually under filigree plate, though still frosted/gilded.


In Watches by George Daniels and Cecil Clutton, it is mentioned that a stark, instrument-like finish was popular because (I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the book in hand) "an English gentleman of the time could not be seen to indulge in excess ornamentation." 

I mention George Daniels because I can't imagine that we'd see any watches finished this way now if it weren't for his influence, and his obvious preference for this type of finishing. In Watchmaking he seems to indicate a belief that the gilded/frosted British-style finish is objectively superior to the plated, anglaged, striped continental finish. Again, I'm paraphrasing because the book is at home, but that's the gist. That being said, he had very good things to say about Patek Philippe in his biography, and clearly thought highly of the brand's finishing.

Of course, after George Daniels we have Roger Smith, and the Frodsham watch is another step in the re-emergence of true British watchmaking, and the British style of movement finishing. Roger Smith, in his YouTube videos, has stated his preference for the 3/4 plate design because it maintains more rigidity, keeping the train aligned during use and servicing. One might suppose that modern production methods of bridged movements produce ample rigidity, but it's a helpful reminder that the design has a basis in functionality.

Finally, as it relates to the man hours and skill required for production, it's my understand (from one of the aforementioned books; can't recall specifically which right now) that the method of frosting the finish by hand is actually extremely delicate, and a plate can easily be ruined. Add to this the fact that Daniels' and Smith's watches have incredibly intricate, multi-piece hand guilloche dials, and you can add up where a lot of the man hours are spent on finishing. Of course, the Frodsham lacks such a dial.

An interesting tidbit I read recently over on SJX in his article about the new Akrivia watch (quoting): "According to Rexhep, a frosted finish (which is the only viable alternative for a watch of this quality) is more prone to oxidise or stain over time if moistures enters the case or as the result of careless handling during servicing. Geneva stripes, on the other hand, is a more robust finish."

Overall, both styles of finishing are the products of their respective histories, and of the influence of particular makers. Stylistically, the difference is clearly subjective, I don't think you'd be wrong to prefer one over the other. For me, I like both, as long as it's consistent with the full package. 

Hope that helps!

Brandon






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Dear Friends, could you please help me appreciate the British style of movement finishing?

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 4th, 2018-11:02
With something like a Dufour, there is anglage to a crazy degree, black polishing, etc. It seems easy for me, a beginner, to appreciate. A high-end watch like a Charles Frodsham (pictured) or RWSmith, has a different style, with relatively little anglage,...  

It’s all about style …

 
 By: Cpt Scarlet : April 4th, 2018-11:08
or a particular style. Understated, beautifully finished but not as fussy or flamboyant. I hope that this helps.

Hmm, I guess I am looking for equivalent levels of hand-finishing

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 4th, 2018-11:25
Versus a swiss/german finished watch of a similar price/horological level and not quite finding it. The Credor Eichi II is super understated, but thar be anglage ahoy!

Not sure of the historical reason (someone will be along in a moment)

 
 By: Velociphile - No longer in the building : April 4th, 2018-11:11
but personally I just don't find gilded frosting and lack of anglage on the plates either appealing nor demonstrative of enough workload for the money! I'm expecting Jimi duetting with Janis with the Loon drumming behind Jaco on bass. For similar reasons ... 

That's helpful, thanks.

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 4th, 2018-11:23
My first impression is the same. I think I am sure to be missing something!

I think frosted gilt finishing was a decoration

 
 By: reintitan : April 4th, 2018-11:25
popular in historical British watchmaking (and German, too). The Geneva stripes and anglage was historically found in Swiss watches while damascene was perfected by the American manufacturers. Some examples of the former I can recall at the top of my head...  

Finishing might be important

 
 By: dedestexhes : April 4th, 2018-11:43
but a movement needs to be coherent. If you know they developed this one for 10 years, you might understand the approach they took. I did send a mail almost 10 years ago to Frodsham, amazing journey. And indeed more with the British approach to watchmakin... 

I hope you will please take pictures!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 4th, 2018-14:25
...and post then here! Also, could you ask about estimated time between services? And issues with shock for the movement (there is extremely low tolerance for shock with this movement)? And, as a final question: what took them so long? Was there an issue ... 

Yes, please!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 4th, 2018-14:26
Please see my questions above!

Interesting question. The British style...

 
 By: brandon1 : April 4th, 2018-11:52
My interpretation of the data suggests that the British watch industry coalesced around the gilded 3/4 plate design around 1840, when Nicole & Capt relocated from Le Sentier to London, and began supplying ebauches to a number of influential London bra... 

Excellently put, Brandon! Both have their place, both have their respective merits...

 
 By: Ornatus-Mundi : April 4th, 2018-12:34
Thanks for taking the time to put this short summary together. Magnus

Many thanks! [nt]

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : April 4th, 2018-14:28

You're very welcome.

 
 By: brandon1 : April 4th, 2018-15:23
Bravo to you for starting an interesting thread. Brandon

I can't discuss too technical questions because I'm not so knowledgeable

 
 By: piccolochimico (aka dsgalaxy1) : April 4th, 2018-12:58
What I know for sure is that today, with modern technologies, machineries and alloys, watchmaker could avoid to finish a watch. Level of precision is close to micron, but centuries ago a well executed cote de Genève was absolutely helpful in "grabbing" du... 

I believe the English..

 
 By: john c : April 4th, 2018-14:24
..in the 19th & early 20th century concentrated on the performance of the watch and not what it looked like. Just my humble opinion. John.

Smith was Daniels' apprentice, just as the latter was Breguet's. The outcome here can surely be no surprise. :-)

 
 By: kjkt3 : April 4th, 2018-14:47
Each has followed, but also developed, the work of his master. ...  

I don't think...

 
 By: mdg : April 4th, 2018-18:51
...Daniels was that old : )