Arie - Mr Orange
12472
The Holy Trinity
1. Patek Philippe.
2. Vacheron Constantin.
3. Audemars Piguet.
Could I state that Audemars Piguet should be replaced by A. Lange & Söhne? And that Lange is very near if not at the same level as Patek? Not in quantity, but quality.
Food for thought?
This message has been edited by Arie on 2016-08-12 05:52:13
The Holy Trinity
1. Patek Philippe. 2. Vacheron Constantin. 3. Audemars Piguet. Could I state that Audemars Piguet should be replaced by A. Lange & Söhne? And that Lange is very near if not at the same level as Patek? Not in quantity, but quality. Food for thought? This m...
This is too holy a question for a mere mortal like me to respond to.
My guess is, people normally refer to the Holy Trinity of Swiss watches, hence PP, VC and AP.
That's also my question for those people. :)
Personally I don\'t really care for the idea of a Holy Trinity of horology.
If I'm not wrong that's Western holy trinity
on East Piaget is member instead of AP and I stand here to be corrected....and there are then also personal holy trinities Also I think that Lange yearly production is much lower than PP....more exclusive hence? Cordially D
Know nothing about AP but
Piaget has a place on the trinity. I was very disappointed with VC, when I learned that the Overseas Chronograph (that was on my list) used, until 2016 a non in house movement. And the current "in house" for VC Overseas has a strong JLC smell. Cheers, Nil...
Difficult question...
I would put Patek and ALS on top. But after that for the third place either VC or Brequet. Manufacturers like JLC come, in my opinion, much before AP. Unfortunately AP is nowadays mostly RO & ROO and the other model series are small compared to Genta's de...
My personal guess is that Breguet has a real problem getting its message through...
and particularly in an emotional way. The substance is all there (technology, craftsmanship, heritage). But maybe it is because - my opinion solely! - Breguet still struggles to position itself in an equivalent way as Mr Breguet managed. The brand is root...
I am very glad that there is somebody sharing my view on Breguet.
Breguet is not much discussed here and at the same time e.g. GP is always on the headlines. I will pick up my next watch on Monday and it's a GP but still, in my opinion, Breguet belongs to another (higher) category. Best, Kari
House style
Breguet has a very particular house style. I suspect they get less attention than they deserve because while they produce a lot of watches of great quality, while they have a distinctive style, a must for any serious watch brand, it is very particular and...
They have house style for sure.
But e.g. XX Aeronavale on the other hand and say the Tradition or their Grand Complications on the other side, are very very different. When we speak about watches for ladies, others have big problems to compere with Reine de Naples as an example. Best, K...
I would replace AP with Lange in a heartbeat.
Personally, I place Lange ahead of PP; not only for the (much, much) lower production numbers but because of the finishing on all models across the board and the dedicated use of movements for each model. PP has gone crazy with production over the last se...
Agree and politely disagree.
The decoration of Lange's movements is superb. At the same time the movements are quite thick and often contain "unnecessary" many parts. In my opinion what Lange might win in the movement decoration compared with Patek, they loose in elegance. I agree th...
Finnish sayings are sometimes difficult to understand
if you do not know the culture and the history. What do you say about: "A Russian remains a Russian even if you fry him in butter". Best, Kari
Agree with many of your comments.
See my comments in other post in this thread. As a further point to that context, Breguet was mostly in a "caretaker" state for most of the 20th Century, as was UN for much of it until Rolf Schnyder acquired it and revived it. Same for Lange until Gunther...
I had no idea that AP (or a subsidiary) offered technical assistance.................
With Lange's rebirth. That is pretty interesting thanks for the info..........I learned something new today! Tony
Many of Lange's watch cases were (are?) made by AP subsidiary Centror...
... those cases are marked with "CO": Also, the movement in the original Tourbillon Pour le Merite that Lange introduced back in 1994 was basically designed by Renaud & Papi. ...
I think the question is to be considered a little deeper than a quick response warrants...
Historically, yes, PP, VC and AP are the "Swiss Trinity." If we're considering purely movement decoration, you can add Lange. But then you have the independents that can put them to shame (Kari V, Philip D, etc.). If we're talking about "whole language" -...
I visited an AP owned factory near Geneva
With Dr. T and a Purists group where they manufactured all the AP cases in all materials whereas the Carbon Fibre production for AP and Richard Mille cases and movement pieces at that time was done at AP owned Renaud & Papi. S
Some Interesting Articles
I used Google Translate to read them, will answer all your questions, btw the bracelets were built by this wholly owned (since 2000) subsidiary Centror but they also do work for other groups. www.tdg.ch www.fhs.ch S
Hard to write a chart of a whole company
They produce all great watches and ugly stuff. We could try to set some parameters, but mostly every chart would be close to our preferences. AP, PP and VC are known to be the most famous Swiss manufacturers, but it varies on whom we're talking to. On tha...
"Holy Trinity" - just don't use the term.
Call it "My favorite brands" Or " top brands based on xxxyyy" but avoid using "Big Three" Or "Holy Trinity" One is "generic" and doesn't carry the same baggage beyond the underlying criteria and the other has become an idiomatic phrase that carries meanin...
Good argument. Mostly agree.
Renaud & Papi come to Lange through JLC/Blumlein, though-don't they? R&P were co-owned by Mannesmann, no?
No, R&P (from RPC) was independent with funding from AP when
CC split off. Never part of Mannesmann / VDO / Blumlein / Richmond transactions. They got involved because of personal affinity with Blumlein...IWC Grande Complication involvement same.
I wasn't hating. Just wondering about that 'The Holy Trinity' thing.
And indeed it doesn't matter at all that they mostly do the RO(O). Nothing wrong with that. They have placed themselves more in the Richard Mille and Hublot corner (style wise). Talking about that; how should we call that horological style? New School? Ne...
I like that "new school" tag, though I respectfully and strongly disagree on one thing...
... AP have not placed themselves in the RM and Hublot corner - I think that Hublot have placed themselves copying many designs that originally came from AP, including the exaggerated Special Edition strategy. Cheers Henrik
Agreed. The movements of entry to mid level JLC products are not so well finished.
I would have loved the brand more if they had the same philosophy as Lange towards finishing.
I tend to agree. They can do better in terms of decoration. But would you also like...
The price increase? Best, Nicolas
Hmm.. Compromising on finishing standards for cost reasons to me is just an excuse to
maximise profit... If other houses can do it (i.e producing high standards of finishing while keeping to relatively reasonable prices eg. GP), I don't see why JLC can't.
But there is a big difference in price between a first access GP and a first access JLC.
Now, if we are going farther in the range, a Duometre is still a good deal in terms of price / decoration ratio. Don't you think?
This I have to agree...
A Duometre is indeed a piece of superb value chronograph in the high horology department - as compared to the likes of Patek Philippe or a Lange. Incidentally, there was an episode on WuW youtube channel broadcasted on 8 Aug 16 which Tim Mosso gave his ow...
Not so easy anymore
It doesn't have to be a Swiss brand, moreover, the production number does not dictate the quality of a watch and the after sales service. I personally don't think PP is what used to be and it saddens me to even say that. We can all give our own opinions b...
I will be frank with you: this type of ranking is nonsense for me.
It really depends the type of watch you want to buy. Let's take an exemple: you want to buy a Diver. Are the best diver watches coming from these brands? We can multiply this type of examples... Honestly, I have high doubts to compare this way these brand...
Historically, they will always be the "Big Three," but that doesn't mean the "Only Three."
Clearly, the "Big Three" designation is historic. It comes from a time when there were only three top-tier watch companies. (I take nothing away from JLC's skills, but they were movement suppliers to the Big Three and chose to arrange their own offerings ...
AP is still at the table
There appear to be a few manufacturers at the top. PP, VC, AP, ALS all make watches with good cases, dials, movements, and finishing. Liking one over another seems to be a matter of splitting hairs and personal taste. I personally like AP for combining ha...
Tough question. Here are some of my thoughts.
I don't have the ambition to have the monopole of truth, not even Truth, here. I would say that: 1/ I don't know who gave this name to these three brands. 2/ AP / PP and VC are three excellent brands, with some irritating points, and some great virtues. I...
All very good points.
As someone said somewhere in the last couple days: great minds think alike! ;-)
50 years ago it was pretty clear who the big three were...............
With so many watch producers nowadays the "Holy Trinity" term is hard to use especially when you factor in some of the independents. I define my big three now by the amount of pieces that I would want to own within each brand. Tony
The term "holy trinity" came from a time when...
... those companies have been understood to a. master all grande complications b. build a variety of classic timepieces c. have the highest price tag In the early/mid nineties the rebound of the mechanical watch was still rather fresh, and PP, VC and AP w...
My holy trinity would be Dufour, Smith and Voutilainen. In their own ways each had contributed to the art of horology. On their own. No corporate model. Alone or in a small group they have produced watches of the highest quality and truly mastered the
Art of hand made watchmaking. The trilogy mentioned above may be the popular choice and the addition of also a popular comment but I wonder if the choices are based on objective or subjective factors but my trilogy is down to the creators. I would throw ...
Is Vacheron still making watches??
I thought they were just selling old stock... and for Lange being the same level as Patek... I would put Patek the same level as one of the lower end Swatch Group companies. If it was a Trinity in terms of finishing and bringing their own art, I would hav...
:-)
The indies aren\'t brands though. They are one (or two in the case of the horological brothers) man operated businesses. So they will stop existing as soon as the masters stop working. Most likely.
Ah.... thought it was the Holy Trinity of Watchmaking...
not of brands... but then what is it on? Production levels, quality, innovation, etc? I think in the terms of people like Vianney or Dufour... yes I have a feeling their brands will die when they go to the horological place in the clouds... I think Kari w...
Hey Arie, I Will Add My Two..
... Swiss Francs. The "Trinity" refers to Swiss brands. While I would agree A. Lange & Sohne should really be considered the very best of the very best, it is a Saxon brand. And so, while I am very compelled by your post, the truth is that Lange &...
My simplistic view
there is a simple rule in life: "You cannot please everyone" That's why we have different brands for different tastes and budgets. Can you rank them? Most likely, but everyone's rank will be different. I pull my hat for all manufacturers that produce mech...
The "Big Three" originally refers to the most prestigious SWISS manufacturers...
...which would exclude ALS by definition. I think it's a bit of an outdated term. Everyone's tastes are different, and above a certain level of quality one starts to split hairs. I think AP has ridden the coattails of the Royal Oak to such a degree that t...
I'm a total novice but...
I think AP hasn't contributed that much in the last two decades to watchmaking. PP, VC, ALS, Breguet, and Credor would come before AP for me.