Sandgroper
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Question about Indies...from a layman....
As I have been told by our gentil Pplater that Vachemars Piguek's biscuit for one afternoon will sustain an Independent for several years. I am curious to know if the .."mars" and the "ek" in this eitherwise funny compilation, could not be referred as Indies. After all, to my knowledge, Audemars Piguet and Patek Philippe are family owned companies in contrast to conglomerates or big financial companies, ie. Financiere Richemont, Swatch Group, LVMH or PPR for example. If a Philippe Dufour, Kari Voutilainen and many others Swiss, Dutch, German, Belgian, Spanish, English, Austrian, etc. are called independent because they do not belong to a corporation like JLC, VC, Lange, Omega, Longine, Zenith, Breguet, etc. do! So my question is: are Rolex, Patek Philippe and Audemars Piguet Independent? If not, what would define the term "Independent".
Looking forward to reading your thoughts about this, I believe, controversial and interesting, (to me) topic.
Cheers. Francois
Question about Indies...from a layman....
As I have been told by our gentil Pplater that Vachemars Piguek's biscuit for one afternoon will sustain an Independent for several years. I am curious to know if the .."mars" and the "ek" in this eitherwise funny compilation, could not be referred as Ind...
It is a difficult question...
Sometimes, there is a very thin frontier between an independent watchmaker... and a brand. We have good examples like Speake-Marin of independant watchmaker who starts to build their own brand (and it is successful for Peter!). So once the brand "Speake-M...
A face...
As Fx says this is a tricky distinction and we try to not make it too hard and cold. We want to see the standards of Haute Horlogerie upheld, but also the face of a watchmaker at the head of the company. Rolex, Audimar and Patek are impecable watchmaking ...
Hi Don, hope this note finds you in good health and.....
happy. Thank you for your input. So, if tomorrow, Mr. Stern from Patek Philippe or Mme Jasmine Audemars from Audemars Piguet decided to go and show their faces at every and each company event, perhaps even personally picking up a percentage of their clien...
Thank you FX for you reply. So, if I understand well....
and to take one example or two, Philippe Dufour has a workshop, he himself works as a watchmaker, designer extraordinaire and the workshop or the company who manufactures Philippe Dufour watches belongs to all the watchmakers who work in it? Idem for Kari...
To me, it's a know-it-when-you-see-it.....
situation. I think it's hard to come up with a clear definition of what we all consider to be an independent versus a brand. Some examples are obvious. Take Christian Klings - the very epitome of independent in my view. He creates each of his timepieces b...
Thank you Darren. One thing I don't get.....
"Independent v brand" so, would you say that Kari Voutilainen and Philippe Dufour are not brands? We're expanding now, "Independent v Brand"? Interesting. Cheers. Francois
Yes, I would agree with that.....
At this point PD and KV are not brands in my view, even though they have other watchmakers contributing on at least certain of their timepieces. To buy one of their watches you're likely going to need to communicate with the "man in charge", and those com...
Hi Darren, thank you for your input, it is confusing....
the more one tries to define what an independent is, the more confusing it gets but basically as you said previously it is the feeling which count in the end. Cheers. Francois
You're too much looking for a strict definition + it's not only a shareholder number issue
Hi François, It's a definition that doesn't really exist but that we finally define quite well with time. After having studied many Indies and smaller brands, it's easier to say, for each, if it is or it is not an independant watchmaker. One of the elemen...
Thank you for your input Mark, carefully reading your....
view points on this topic, I can't but wonder how you can say that "Independent" make their products "as they like" and not " as the market likes" . Is the market not the clients? Are you saying that the Independents do not need market therefore no client...
Yes, this is exactly what I meant!
Indeed François, this is exactly what I mean: Can you say that these independants are driven by the market (what big brands do) when: - MB&F creates the strange watches they are selling? The first HM1 is enormous and very odd in its shape and cost (to...
My turn Mark? Well, I have already expressed my....
thoughts about this topic in my first thread which accidentally was a reaction to a posting on this subject by our esteemed Pplater. I think that any company which belongs to an individual or a family and run by them in contrast to belonging to a conglome...
My very non-expert thoughts
I think the term "independent" as it is generally used and thrown about leans toward meaning "individuals". So Mr. Dufour, Voutilainen and the like, who hangs their name as the brand and who make the watches themselves. Then there is the low volume factor...
Thank you very much sklim8, to me this is the best....
definition so far and of course I am biased as this is very much my feeling too. Cheers. Francois
It is indeed a partly subjective distinction...
but for me the decisive question is: Could I imagine the watchmaking company (I am assuming that a single watchmaker like Christian Klings is considered 'independent' a priori) to be without its founder? For 'independents', the answer is a clear NO! Vouti...
Thank you Magnus, that's an important point....
Dufour or Voutilainen for example are independents because they are at the helm, they design and make their own pieces, very good point. Totally in agreement with you. Cheers. Francois
For me, " Independant " is any brand or watchmaker who doesn't belong to a Group.
So, any brand or watchmaker from Gronefeld to Rolex. Best, Nicolas This message has been edited by amanico on 2013-02-26 13:43:24
Ah Nicolas, straight to the point and very cartesian....
punkt schluss:):) that was exactly my point in the thread's introduction, some see the etymology of the word and some certain romantism. As sklim8 says, in the end the feeling is the silver lining. Cheers. Francois
Fact...there is no answer right now. Only grey areas, and this is GOOD.
It shows that the watch industry is healthy. It is following standard bell shaped curves of what has happened to other industries and disciplines. Most of all...it is retaining its humanity. And it seems that by being able to change and grow, it is also s...
Francois, my kids were reading your post and
they asked me a question which I thought was pretty apt "how are you gonna service your indy 50 years from now?"... I guess I'd have put that characteristic of part of what entails when buying and wearing an 'indy'. Mech.
Mech, with all respect due
I do not get your point. Who is servicing the old wonderful watches of the past? Marine chronometers? Specialist artisan watchmakers! Vintage Breguets and the like? Specialist artisan watchmakers! Old wonderful Longines 13zn, 30ch? You. Know the answer no...
Thanks Z, my comment was attempting to
simplify what is already a small grey area to distinguish and indi and the like of PP, Moser etc. If you read other responses, some would have already pointed a subtle difference between them in the area of the owner and watchmaker (same person) of the wa...
Hi Mech, smart kids you have! The watch you buy today from....
an Indie will be serviced in 50 years time by a non Indie but rest assured that it will be serviced impeccably by highly qualified watch makers. It is more than likely that the Indies of today won't be Indies in 50 years time. 1- They would have been abso...
Thanks, all well valid points, also if the indy
has decided to stay indy based on your definitions of an indy until he kicks the bucket, and it could well be, and no interested corporate to take over for whatever reason, then we have a small problem. Else, if an indy ceases to be one from your points, ...
Hi Mech, my definition of Indie is not what I wrote in....
point 2 and 3, these definitions are not mine. My own definition is as stated in my "question post", any watch maker company which is not part of a group is an Indie, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Rolex for example are Indies in my book. Now, in my opi...
I agree with you Francois, I just hope those super grand
complications indi piece share the same fate too. I'm sure someone would be capable of doing so, but willingly? Hmmm... Mech.
Interesting topic
Thanks for your definitions, but what is really important to me is the attitude. If Omega, Rolex or Patek create something based on its own understanding of horology, it is attractive and independent. If Dufour, Halter produce anything only to look pretty...