Independents

As I have been told by our gentil Pplater that Vachemars Piguek's biscuit for one afternoon will sustain an Independent for several years. I am curious to know if the .."mars" and the "ek" in this eitherwise funny compilation, could not be referred as Ind... 

Sometimes, there is a very thin frontier between an independent watchmaker... and a brand. We have good examples like Speake-Marin of independant watchmaker who starts to build their own brand (and it is successful for Peter!). So once the brand "Speake-M... 

As Fx says this is a tricky distinction and we try to not make it too hard and cold. We want to see the standards of Haute Horlogerie upheld, but also the face of a watchmaker at the head of the company. Rolex, Audimar and Patek are impecable watchmaking ... 

happy. Thank you for your input. So, if tomorrow, Mr. Stern from Patek Philippe or Mme Jasmine Audemars from Audemars Piguet decided to go and show their faces at every and each company event, perhaps even personally picking up a percentage of their clien... 

and to take one example or two, Philippe Dufour has a workshop, he himself works as a watchmaker, designer extraordinaire and the workshop or the company who manufactures Philippe Dufour watches belongs to all the watchmakers who work in it? Idem for Kari... 

situation. I think it's hard to come up with a clear definition of what we all consider to be an independent versus a brand. Some examples are obvious. Take Christian Klings - the very epitome of independent in my view. He creates each of his timepieces b... 

"Independent v brand" so, would you say that Kari Voutilainen and Philippe Dufour are not brands? We're expanding now, "Independent v Brand"? Interesting. Cheers. Francois

At this point PD and KV are not brands in my view, even though they have other watchmakers contributing on at least certain of their timepieces. To buy one of their watches you're likely going to need to communicate with the "man in charge", and those com... 

the more one tries to define what an independent is, the more confusing it gets but basically as you said previously it is the feeling which count in the end. Cheers. Francois

Hi François, It's a definition that doesn't really exist but that we finally define quite well with time. After having studied many Indies and smaller brands, it's easier to say, for each, if it is or it is not an independant watchmaker. One of the elemen... 

view points on this topic, I can't but wonder how you can say that "Independent" make their products "as they like" and not " as the market likes" . Is the market not the clients? Are you saying that the Independents do not need market therefore no client... 

Indeed François, this is exactly what I mean: Can you say that these independants are driven by the market (what big brands do) when: - MB&F creates the strange watches they are selling? The first HM1 is enormous and very odd in its shape and cost (to... 

thoughts about this topic in my first thread which accidentally was a reaction to a posting on this subject by our esteemed Pplater. I think that any company which belongs to an individual or a family and run by them in contrast to belonging to a conglome... 

I think the term "independent" as it is generally used and thrown about leans toward meaning "individuals". So Mr. Dufour, Voutilainen and the like, who hangs their name as the brand and who make the watches themselves. Then there is the low volume factor... 

definition so far and of course I am biased as this is very much my feeling too. Cheers. Francois

but for me the decisive question is: Could I imagine the watchmaking company (I am assuming that a single watchmaker like Christian Klings is considered 'independent' a priori) to be without its founder? For 'independents', the answer is a clear NO! Vouti... 

Dufour or Voutilainen for example are independents because they are at the helm, they design and make their own pieces, very good point. Totally in agreement with you. Cheers. Francois

So, any brand or watchmaker from Gronefeld to Rolex. Best, Nicolas This message has been edited by amanico on 2013-02-26 13:43:24

punkt schluss:):) that was exactly my point in the thread's introduction, some see the etymology of the word and some certain romantism. As sklim8 says, in the end the feeling is the silver lining. Cheers. Francois

It shows that the watch industry is healthy. It is following standard bell shaped curves of what has happened to other industries and disciplines. Most of all...it is retaining its humanity. And it seems that by being able to change and grow, it is also s... 

they asked me a question which I thought was pretty apt "how are you gonna service your indy 50 years from now?"... I guess I'd have put that characteristic of part of what entails when buying and wearing an 'indy'. Mech.

I do not get your point. Who is servicing the old wonderful watches of the past? Marine chronometers? Specialist artisan watchmakers! Vintage Breguets and the like? Specialist artisan watchmakers! Old wonderful Longines 13zn, 30ch? You. Know the answer no... 

simplify what is already a small grey area to distinguish and indi and the like of PP, Moser etc. If you read other responses, some would have already pointed a subtle difference between them in the area of the owner and watchmaker (same person) of the wa... 

an Indie will be serviced in 50 years time by a non Indie but rest assured that it will be serviced impeccably by highly qualified watch makers. It is more than likely that the Indies of today won't be Indies in 50 years time. 1- They would have been abso... 

has decided to stay indy based on your definitions of an indy until he kicks the bucket, and it could well be, and no interested corporate to take over for whatever reason, then we have a small problem. Else, if an indy ceases to be one from your points, ... 

point 2 and 3, these definitions are not mine. My own definition is as stated in my "question post", any watch maker company which is not part of a group is an Indie, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Rolex for example are Indies in my book. Now, in my opi... 

complications indi piece share the same fate too. I'm sure someone would be capable of doing so, but willingly? Hmmm... Mech.

Thanks for your definitions, but what is really important to me is the attitude. If Omega, Rolex or Patek create something based on its own understanding of horology, it is attractive and independent. If Dufour, Halter produce anything only to look pretty...